This is something that has bothered me for a long time. Several of us sit on Ventrilo almost every day and talk about how we would improve the reward system for Keep sieges in Warhammer Online – a system that also reaches into Fortress Sieges and City sieges with the PQ system. Right now the system is broken on several levels. First and foremost, it’s currently bugged into giving people random contribution that they do not deserve. You can show up to the siege and do nothing but sit on your mount and watch yet if you’re lucky enough you can beat out people who were there the entire time and actually contributing. That, of course, needs to be fixed regardless.
Where the system begins to really break down over time though is in the random rolls and the proliferation of this “gear is important!” mentality.  The “vegas loot system” part of the keep siege has actually begun to penalize people more than it should. If someone gets top contribution – and let’s say they deserved it – yet roll anything less than ~800+, then they can kiss their hard earned rewards goodbye.  Our discussions have gone back and forth on this, mostly centering around how a random roll helps the people who don’t have the best gear to have a chance, etc, but something is missing. I’ve decided that the vegas loot system can not be completely removed from the system in its current state because that would essentially help the rich get richer – something we want to avoid. There has to be a better ways and I think I know of a few that are adaptations of the current model and a few that are entirely new directions.
First of all, let’s be honest here and toss out the “RvRing for the sake of RvRing” business, because loot has already become too important. Everyone sieges for the goodies – even Jeff Hickman in a recent video said something like “Yes! Conqueror gear!” or something like that.   Now that we’ve established that it’s all for the loot, why not create a system that relieves the pressure by distributing it more evenly. At the same time, such a system would also devalue gear and move us more towards fighting because we’re mortal enemies and not because we can get phat loots from each others’ castles. So, what are some ideas?
Add a TOKEN system – This one is my favorite version of the current system because it eventually rewards everyone for participating, yet allows for some people to still win instantly. The details:
- Keep the currently PQ system in place.
- Gold bags, blue bags, green bags, etc are given out to the winners.
- Anyone who didn’t get a bag, but participated enough to get contribution, receives a TOKEN.
- These tokens can be redeemed in certain quantities for the same items that players loot out of the bags from a merchant in the warcamps.
What does the system accomplish? It effectively rewards everyone who contributes with an item. Those who contribute the most and have luck on their side will get the gear in exactly the same way. However, those who never seem to roll well and can’t manage to contribute high enough whether it be because their class isn’t as good on sieges or they’re a less skilled player, can still get loot over time.
Make the PERSISTENCE system global – Mythic added the persistence system to PvE PQ’s some time ago that rewarded players for sticking around in PQ’s even if they did not win. The system is designed to eventually help those players by boosting their rolls with a buff they receive by repeating the PQ multiple times and not winning. Why not make this work in RvR too?
- Keep the current system entirely intact.
- If someone wins, they win.  If someone loses, give them the persistence buff.
- The persistence buff will effectively carry with the person helping them to receive loot.
- The lucky are still lucky and the unlucky have a bit of help.
What I do not like about this ssytem is how it simply rewards the players who play the most too easily. Although this seems to be the measure of all MMORPG success (time invested) it might be made too easy here. However, it effectively does the same thing as the token system by distributing the gear in a more efficient way.
Remove the bags completely and move to a pure TOKEN system -  It centers around the idea that a token system for gear is far more fair and essentially devalues gear the most by completely distributing the gear to everyone who participated. This is the only system I’m suggesting that removes the “vegas loot”, but there are a few points to look at.
- Establish a contribution threshold that everyone must attain during the keep siege to weed out the leeches.
- Remove the vegas loot roll but keep the Contribution System in place to make sure it tracks who participates.
- Those who are deemed the top contributors receives 2 Tokens and everyone else receives 1.
- -OR-
- Everyone who participates gets 1 token.
- Tokens are redeemed in Warcamps for gear.
The problem that I see here is that it can reward people for being minimalists. They’ll figure out how to create an Addon that will track contribution and once they reach it, they’ll go AFK or stop trying. We don’t want this, but perhaps there’s a way to work around it so that we can get rid of the loot bags.
REMOVE LOOT from Keeps entirely – The most drastic of the bunch.   This system would make it so that taking keeps does not actively reward players with loot whatsoever. However, there are a few ways to keep this system afloat and make it, possibly, the best choice of all. Note: It does require the most work on Mythic’s Part.
- Remove the bag system, contribution system, and vegas loot entirely.
- Players are still rewarded EXP and Influence but drastically more than they are now.
- Players killed still drop loot – perhaps increased percentage.
- -And the Key to it all….-
- Add Darkness Falls and have the ultimate reward for Keep Sieges be access to the best RvR/PvE Dungeon in the game.
I told you it was going to be drastic, but this is ultimately the best of the bunch. It brings back the ideology that taking keeps is an act of realm aggression and expansion rather than a means of actively gearing up.  Players will find the incentive to be much larger in scope and it will become a driving force behind their actions. This drive will transcend the gear mentality and really begin to immortalize the RvR conflict.
These are just a few ideas that I’ve tossed around with friends as we struggle with the current implementation. There are betters ways of reward the players and at the same time correcting the vision of the game. Feel free to comment and add your own ideas. This is just the beginning.
I think a token system is an excellent way to go. Even those who have the 3 pieces of gear from bags could use it on other items. There would be tier tokens I suspect, so that’s 4 different types. Actually five, for the fortress.
The token system’s benefits can be expanded even more. Tokens prevent people from opening a gold bag to find their 5th pair of shoulders. Tokens allows players to get the gear they want. Tokens can be put into PvE to prevent loot from dropping that no one can use (very frustrating). Also, a Token system goes a long way toward preventing someone with a full set of gear from winning a gold bag and preventing someone with nothing from coming in 4th place and being robbed of an item.
Is the rvr influence gear better or worse then loot bag gear from keep takes?
I don’t understand why a random bag loot equipment item should be better then something you have worked hard to get.
Also yes definately put DF in the game!
For my characters the loot from influence and from keeps have been interchangeable. One of the big factors that makes set items better are the set bonuses for having multiple pieces.
Some of these changes sound like a step in the right direction. I’d also suggest adding some extra items which can be purchased with the tokens. Eventually people are going to collect their entire set and there should be something to encourage these players to continue participating. This could include extra equipment, rare fluff items, items which provide extra RvR influence or even special improved siege weapons.
I like the removing loot altogether thought.
Tokens seem like just a duplicate reward system. When you’ve got influence, why bother with giving away sets otherwise? Just use that, it works and it’s contribution-oriented.
Random loot is supposed to fulfil some sorta surprise-gift urges or something, but in the case of large raids / warbands it’s more of a grumble-disappointment system for most players.
I like a token system. The final option would have been fantastic, but the change would be too drastic in a live environment. I think it would simply piss off too many people to take a completely new direction now that the game has launched. Tokens are a huge improvement to the current system but would still work within its design.
It’s kind of funny how players always complain about in-game inefficiencies when the developers obviously designed things for a lack of efficiency. Every MMO I have played seems to do this. They basically force you into a pattern of something you need to grind because it will keep you playing the game longer. I wonder when a studio will come along with the another viewpoint; one that gives you a long and glorious repetitive (yet dynamic) end-game without all the carrots on sticks. Are we so driven as a society by these carrots that we can’t have long-term fun with a game that isn’t built this way?
That’s kind of a depressing outlook on humanity imho.
I think its a vicious circle (or some other better term..;)). If there is no carrot, some of people don’t seem to see any kind of clear goal and they say: “Well there’s nothing to do in the end”. When there is a carrot, some of people seem to see only the “grind” to get it. Unfortunately these people are usually very vocal and developers tend to listen to them.
I think meta-gaming around gear is something of a center point in rpgs, even in its roots the tabletop D&D. I think the only way out of gear centered game would be a game without statistics, but would it be a game anymore..? While I don’t think I’m gear driven person (at least not anymore, since I dont raid anymore ;)), I’m usually excited to get better loot.
Taking out loot at this point would be wrong idea, and I’m sure Mythic wont do it. They’ve already seen empty rvr areas, they dont wont to risk it.
Both my characters spend there time in T3 oRvR so I cant comment on the end game. However here I love the idea of me possibly getting loot for keep captures and It doesn’t bother me to much when I don’t because I also have my influence ticking over.
I do think a token system would be more likely to reward more people. However surely that’s what the influence is already doing?
I would love to see a DF style dungeon possibly related to keeps a la DAOC but my biggest gripe comes from Renown Trainers/Merchants within the Capitals. Remove them and the lesser populated side would have to take keeps to train/buy
@Ymrar: It’s true that gear and RPGS go together. It’s a fundamental part of the game, but there are differing degrees of importance for gear. It’s all in how the game is designed. Looking at two extremes, we have WoW which is completely 100% designed to revolve around gear and DAOC (pre-TOA) which had gear but it was just gear. Like D&D, gear is great but the game isn’t designed around it. It’s designed around the experience of playing, the adventure, the story, the teamwork, etc.
With WAR, Mythic needs to decide which side of the line they’re going to develop on. Right now it feels like they’re straddling the line trying to hang onto both the gear-centric people and the gameplay-centric. Trying to capture both worlds will result in pleasing neither of them.
You and your Darkness Falls. *rolls eyes*
It’s like the cure-all for MMO PvP, isn’t it? ;p
Actually Bleri said it the best. How is the token system different from influence? You get influence capturing a keep. Token would just be a different name for it.
What I would like to see is have Wards on the influence items. Then the gold bags would really be only bonus items as they should be and no other change would be needed.
Cool ideas!
A token system of sorts is what makes sense to me. In stead of giving everyone a token after reaching a certain contribution threshhold, or anything like that, keep the Vegas loot system. Reward multiple tokens, scaling based on contribution points.
Price the items so that a person who wins the loot roll (with contribution factored in) will generally be able to purchase a single piece of gear. Perhaps a person coming in second place would generally have to come in second three times to accumulate enough tokens for two pieces of gear, etc…
It would take some research, tuning and math to figure out exactly how to make it work, but it would ensure everyone who participates in sieges accumulates gear, some faster than others, but everyone still has a shot.
That’s my two cents, anyway.
On paper the current PQ system still is a good idea. That is you get something for showing up (Influence) and the more you contribute the better chance you have to getting a “loot” item.
However, the PQ implementation fell short. Right now, contribution is borked. So that needs to be fixed. Second the Influence rewards are fairly limited. There is only three pieces you can get for any one area.
Originally, I though Influence would be more like “cash” in that you go to the local INF store and purchase the pieces you want. But right now it is something you max out and get your baubles. Just make the INF system more like a token system with a INF vendor and you should be good to go.
WoW already does item #1 (loot bags + tokens) in their heroics and raids. It works pretty well.
And yes, “everyone seiges for goodies”. If you don’t then you don’t care about loot and loot distribution shouldn’t be a concern.
Gear matters to me because it helps me to kill my mortal enemies, no matter which game it’s in.
I’m honestly surprised anyone still plays Warhammer. I get why its fun for 1 or 2 months, but past that, the game is just very dry and lame. Of course you can say this of alot of the titles currently on the market so maybe thats reason enough for you stick around and propose solutions to what I consider a Gamebreaking issue.
I just can’t put into words how tired I am of the Everquest Theory of MMO design. Level, Quest, Level, Quest, change area, Level, Quest, Level, Quest, change area. No matter where you go you are pretty much the same. Then you hit the endgame and low and behold you are required to have friends and grouping skills for some new metagame grind. Please god can the industry bring something new to the table.
Another Great idea Keen! I was thinking of something to that extent of recent as well. Cant remember how many time I have tried/helped in keep takes just for sake of taking.
Bring DF on!
The level-quest-level-get gear -level -get more gear formula of MMO’s will be around a while yet. People keep asking for different yet end up going back to it (public doesnt know what it wants?).
Bring on darkness falls!
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