I gave it another try but just couldn’t do it

  • Post author:
  • Post category:MMORPG

I resubscribed to World of Warcraft on November 23, 2008 and canceled my account on January 6, 2009.   I decided to return to the game after being told about all the changes to the game and how there was a chance – although slight – that the game might feel different at the max level than it did a few years ago.   I was also lured back by a few features that piqued my interest.  I’ve received several requests to write about why I decided not stick it out in WoW, so I’ll go right down the list.

The end-game is exactly the same. I reached level 80 after a really enjoyable experience leveling and found myself faced with a gear grind once again.  I took it easy at first and tried not to let the gear govern my actions.  I did each of the dungeons a few times to experience them and that’s when the problems began.  I wanted to see more than just a couple instances.  I wanted to see the really neat stuff like Naxxramas and the content that was supposed to be the ‘best’.  Well, to get there required me to make concessions.  I had to sacrifice how I wanted to play the game.  I got sucked into the idea that once again I had to farm the Normal Instances to farm the Heroic instnaces to farm the small raids to farm the large raids.  The decision to stop a little under halfway through that grind was easy for me.

PvP is just another gear grind. It’s not about player vs. player at all.  It’s about climbing another ladder for gear or running on another treadmill or whatever metaphor you want to use.  Doing battlegrounds for countless hours, surrounded by the “lets just lose, we get more points” mentality disgusted me.   After doing battlegrounds to get enough honor to buy a couple peices of gear with resilience I was finally able to start arenas.  The idea of facing off against another team – skill vs. skill – showing what you have vs. what someone else brings was neat to me.  In the end it turned out to be just a match of whoever had the better classes for the matchup or who knew how to cheese their characters the most.  Running myself into the ground trying to gear up to stand a chance here was too much.

Wintergrasp flopped. Unfortunately, this had potential but failed to be anything more than a race for most people.  The way it was designed is mostly to blame.  It lacks the feeling behind the action.  It’s just a spazzy mess tha feels detached from the rest of the world with little consequence.  I like the ‘extras’ like the vehicles and the destructible walls.  Those held my attention for a bit but in the end there wasn’t the substance to hold up all that fluff.

All of the above confirmed for me that the “game” of World of Warcraft ends at level 80.  It’s s a really great game until the end where the “game” ends and the “meta-game” begins.  While leveling it felt like I was building up to something but in the end it was just an empty shell of a character that meant nothing without the “meta-game”.   It’s not like the player can ignore it either.  I can’t say to myself “I don’t care about gear” because the game doesn’t let you think that way – you’re forced to care about gear.   Gear matters far too much in WoW – it’s all the players can talk about.  “I need to do this to get X!”  or “I’m so close to having my X!” instead of “I did this today! or “I went here!”.    That’s not fun to me anymore.

  • Howdy,

    Since being a WoW sub from launch to WAR it was REALLY hard for me at times to not get WoTLK. I loved the art of WoW and the PvP at times. I didn’t even mind the gear grind so much, but the lack of new PvP finally killed it for me.

    There have been some great Battleground fights in the past, but only one new one and WG just wasn’t enough. That mixed with WAR constantly improving has finally got it out of my system.

    Of course I’m starting to crave some dungeon runs (haven’t run a single one since WoW). Are any in WAR even worth running?

    Currently in T2 on Dark Crag Dest.


  • I have not enjoyed any of the dungeons in WAR. I’ve done the Altdorf Sewers, the Inevitable City lowbie dungeon, Gunbad, and Bastion Stair. I’m witholding complete judgment until I get to see the Inevitable city high level dungeons and Lost vale (which looks really cool).

  • Baaaaah! That’s kinda what I have been hearing and afraid of. Maybe if I got in with completely LOW expectations it may kinda get that urge ata me.

    Thx for the info.

  • And those are most of the reasons I’ll be back to WAR after I get to 80.

    The leveling in WoW it just good fun. Wish WAR could steal some of that.

  • I totally get where you’re coming from. I left WAR after getting frustrated with their PvE game, to resubscribe to WoW with WotLK since I’m a long-time player (since beta) there. The leveling and the atmosphere was awesome, but after leveling to 80, grinding through heroics, and making one run through Naxxramas and Obsidian Sanctum, I was done. The gear grind is just as it always has been, and while I like getting new gear, the numbers game just isn’t fun to me.

    My WoW account runs out on January 16th, and there’s really no other MMOs that catch my eye right now. I’ll likely be playing console games for a while.

  • I’m glad you enjoyed the ride to 80 at least – the solo quest content in Wrath is second to none.

    WoW’s PVP incentives amount to bribing players to sink time into heavily reusable content (much of which hasn’t changed in 2+ years). They succeed at that task, but they certainly degrade the PVP experience for anyone who is legitimately in it for the competition. The game is not, and never will be, primarily focused on PVP.

    I actually do like Wintergrasp personally, but, again, that may or may not be a bad sign since I’m not really a PVP’er at heart. It certainly has its issues, but it’s a cut above the rest of WoW’s PVP, and it offers some nice rewards. For what Blizzard was trying to create – PVP that could hold the attention of the core WoW demographic (which, again, is PVE at heart) – I’d call it a success.

  • Well first off, as I’ve previously stated, I think the issue is the GUILD you were a member of as well as how you played the game.

    1. You won’t see much of Naxx or Malygos without a supportive and friendly guild.

    2. Raiding isn’t the only thing to do end game, there are EXTENSIVE quest lines that “phase” parts of the world…IE what you do actually impacts the game environment. These quests also advance your gear level via reputation with factions but the most important factor is that the storylines are increidible.

    3. PVP is a gear grind if you let it be a gear grind. Personally I do a couple of BG’s per day, and WG when its up and I am not busy. I also spend raid tokens on my PVP set….this is more than suffecient for a casual PVPer to gear up competatively with the folks that chain que BG’s.

    4. Arena SUCKS. If you allowed yourself to be drawn in to that debacle as a major part of the game, I’m not suprised you quit. Raiding, questing, BG’s, WG, and farming are infinently more enjoyable than sandbox style elimination PVP that hinges more on RNG luck of the draw class match ups than anythign else.

    On the subject of Lake Wintergrasp….I agree somewhat that it wasn’t really implimented that well. To that effect there are some very extensive changes going through next patch in relation to wall health, vehicle health, etc etc. The tenacity buff is utter failure, but at least it makes it more fun to be on the “losing” side. Even so, communication and proper tactical choices win WG, not buffs or gear. This goes back to my point about a solid guild that supports the type of playstyle you enjoy.

    WG being interactive to the rest of the world has far more impact on the average player than anythign I saw in Warhammer. The ability to gain “shards” from every instance boss you kill IF and only IF your faction controls WG gives every player an incentive. You can use those shards to gear up alts, buy PVP enchants/gems, purchase mounts, or even boost up honor via “commendation marks”. Controling the Keep benefits every player in Northrend with measurable results.

    Bottom line is that WoW is a type of game that will suck if you are in a tiny guild of 10 people. Its always been said that “the game doesn’t even start til max level” so of course that wasn’t going to change. The design of the game is that you will NEVER be finished….which is the design behind a game that you can continue to enjoy. Personally I think you got too caught up with the concept of Arena as “real” PVP and weren’t in a guild that could really support you in your playstyle.

    I’m also shocked that you didn’t go through the epic questlines in Storm Peaks and Icecrown. There was so much incredible storyline stuff and even great cinematics. Question for you Keen, did you do the Wrathgate line? Possibly the most increidble part of the game I’ve ever seen. As someone in full 25 man Naxx gear and damn near full epic PVP gear I still go quest and take part in the acheivement system because THAT is the truely enjoyable content. Gear is only the focus if you let it be the focus.

    During the limited time period I played Warhammer I honestly jsut found the game to be a poorly implimented version of WoW that disguised the fact that gear was a central concern. I mean what about all the complaints that PVP GEAR wasn’t good enough? The player base and guild choice is what killed WoW for yah….sad to say it.

  • Your post here pretty much sums up my feelings about WoW.

    I really enjoy exploring new areas and gaining new abilities, and WoW is good on both counts as you’re leveling up. Exploration yields new levels, new levels allow you to explore new areas… there’s always something new to strive for, and it’s never all that far away.

    Of course, once you hit the level cap, everything slows to a crawl. Too much “work” for too little payoff, in my opinion.

  • Leveling to 80 was very enjoyable for me. After hitting 80 is when the game became the some old thing. I actually think that the game’s extreme easy mode has allowed the boredom to set in much quicker than it did in BC. The pvp is more imbalanced than ever before; Deathnights/pallys = win.

    I doubt that I will renew my subscription to WoW. It is very hard for me to completely leave my wonderful friends. I may have to just visit them on vent and save myself $15 a month.

  • Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I left WoW years ago and was wondering if the gear-grind changed at all. From your experience, it sounds like it hasn’t changed.

  • I learned with Burning Crusade that there’s not much of a sense of adventure left in WoW, which is a shame because it had so much at launch, but the first expansion was rush to endgame then ladder-oriented content.

    I didn’t expect that to change with WotLK and I’m happy I’ve passed on it.

    They’d need a lot more content before I’d consider going back, but with the way they trivialize older content it’s not like multiple expansions will stack very well.

    What Blizzard should do is a complete makeover of the original world, bringing much of it to the Endgame. If every instance had a max-level ‘heroic’ mode, just for the fun of it, that’d be a lot more appealing to me.

    Gear is nice, but if it’s the only focus, ugh.

  • Well, after several years of playing, maybe just move on already? hehe

    I mean, you got YEARS of play out of it. YEARS.

    That’s a Hell of a deal.

  • nothing will bring me to wow again. but I must say this so called next gen mmo from blizz not yet anounced is goin to be a killer game. Because it has the people and the community, and it will be new. Mabey as good as wow was in the bigining. And D3 woo. lol DARKFALLS next cya there

  • “Wintergrasp flopped” – Aside from big lag than often happens and is very sad, I strongly disagree. Already Wintergrasp > WAR keep battle and is just playground for future content. Yes there is loads of room for improvement but finally after years of fail they made something FUN in PvP. I am really excited about what they will do after, I expect campaign style like in WAR in next expansion.

    As for arena if you dislike it (like most players) just ignore it. Don’t try to play that 10 games just ignore it, forget about it – either you love it or hate it.

    As for grinds, well this is mmorpg. I could say you grind renown in WAR too or that you most likely need to grind dungeons to be able to defeat enemy king etc. I still do heroics even that I bought everything I possibly could, I still does 10 mans even that I don’t really need anything there – I just have fun there, granted I would not if I would need to go with pug. From PvP side I could agree – Wintergrasp only feels good (not perfect but still) – rest is grind.

  • I don’t feel like I have a purpose in WoW beyond the one-track-mind of the gear grind whereas in WAR I have options and can shoot for RvR which is far more dynamic a goal.

  • this is why i enjoy reading your blogs keen. you never drop into a fanboi post and always tell the truth about what your feel in a game. i know some people will disagree with your opinion but your WOTLK opinion is right on the money.

    Since TBC , WOW already descended into gear grind mode where everything you do is about gear and nothing else. as for some people who think there is something else to do at level cap , its all just minor diversion.. in WOW everything is about gear and nothing else matters.

    Im glad you always put honest opinion about WAR’s positive and negatives without resorting to a fanboy attitude.


  • You guys DO know that you don’t HAVE to “grind gear” right?

    I mean, I have been playing for 3 years, enjoy it when I do and have never felt as though I “had to” do anything.

    Are you SURE you guys aren’t talking a job or something?


  • @Beau: I can respect where you’re coming from. That’s how I attempted to play it this time around (as you’ll read in the blog entry). However, can you please tell me how to enjoy WotLK content and WoW as a whole WITHOUT getting gear and participating in the “meta-game” that is a gear-grind?

  • Keen’s not entirely off-base. The same issues are there, especially the gear grind, since you won’t be able to down bosses without the proper gear.

    As for me, I tried the 10-day free trial and decided to quit. Saved me 55 bucks.

  • Keen says: “I don’t feel like I have a purpose in WoW beyond the one-track-mind of the gear grind whereas in WAR I have options and can shoot for RvR which is far more dynamic a goal.”

    Strangely enough Keen, I feel exactly the opposite. WAR to me was an endless grind of running poorly designed (IE go to X, get X, kill X number of X mobs) quests while waiting 45 minutes to an hour for a scenario to pop. I didn’t feel that any action I took had any impact at all on the advancement of faction specific goals. Conversely, in WoW I can have a very pronounced and direct effect on my faction advancement, my guild advancement, and my personal advancement all at the same time. Now don’t get me wrong…WAR has some truely great points as a game, things like “living cities” and the guild ranking system. However to say “WoW is a grind and WAR isn’t” is somewhat misleading. WAR is JUST as much of a grind as WoW, but its packaged differently. PVP seemed to be just as imbalanced, but more focused around knockbacks and ranged nukes as opposed to stuns and healing. I’ll be the first to admit that I haven’t played WAR in months though.

    I have found the world in WoW (at least since the release of Northrend) to be infinently more dynamic than any MMO I’ve played before, other than the incredible EQ1 GM events from back in the 1999-2000 era. The questing, phasing, rep advancement, Cinematics, and even the scripted background peices (like Wyrmrest temple) make the world seem alive. Quests like “Aces High” (where you pilot a dragon and use only its abilites to kill other dragons) keep the pacing rather fresh, and the quest lines where you get to do things like…play as Arthas prior to becoming the Lich King really give you a sense of immersion in the world.

    About the only thing that doesn’t really hold with the “suspension of disbeleif” that is integral to a real online RPG experience is Arena and Battlegrounds. Hell, even WG feels like it has some kind of place….IE a proving ground between the two factions.

    I guess I should put it like this…..remember when you played D&D? Didn’t you ALWAYS want the +18 soul sucking sword? The desire for gear and items never diminished my enjoyment of table top RPG’s, nor did my desire for greater power in game keep me from enjoying the more “cloak and dagger” games like Vampire and Mage. See what I’m getting at?

  • @ Beau

    I play MMORPGs to have a character that competes with, interacts with and works with other people but the primary focus for me is the character. That being, my character. The only way to advance my character is through levels and via gear. Of course once you’ve pinged at the top levels become removed and instead you the gear grind. Rating, achievements, notches on the belt, they’re all secondary to my character advancing.

    Any additional experiences along the way are what ‘bulk out’ my enjoyment of the game but ultimately I have one major aim/goal, to have the best character I can get. In WoW that’s through gear. That’s how I advance my character. That’s how I see all the content and that’s how I can can become the ‘hero’ my character is suppose to represent within World of Warcraft.

    I would assume a good portion of vocal have similar aims and even a healthy amount of the not so vocal groups also do, because ultimately that is what drives the population to keep on playing – the advancement of said character/s. The busy trade/general chat channels, a guild’s goals, the whine threads on forums – the core ‘thing’ around all of those is the gear.

    I play Counter Strike to kill other players. I’ll play a Puzzle game to beat the puzzles. I play them all for their initial intention. For WoW the intention is to advance your character and like mentioned there’s only one ‘visible’ and ‘accepted’ way to do that; gear. That’s not making WoW a second job, that’s playing the game as it was intended.

  • “However, can you please tell me how to enjoy WotLK content and WoW as a whole WITHOUT getting gear and participating in the “meta-game” that is a gear-grind?”

    @Keen: I can actually answer that. The end-game for me was one of the more enjoyable aspects of the WoW because of the people and teamwork I played with. If you got those two things (good people & good teamwork), you barely think about gear in the end-game and are much more focused on working well as a team. The gear instead just becomes a bonus for the great experiences you have.

    In your case, it totally sounds like you were having horrible experiences with the people you were playing with (i.e. PUGs that basically filtered you because of your gear). So of course all you’re going to think about is gear. If you had a group of friends though (or were in a friendly guild who helped you out) then you don’t really think about gear that much. Instead it’s more about a bunch of people having a fun night and enjoying the challenging experiences and teamwork. It’s one reason why I like casual guilds vs hardcore guilds because casual guilds usually have a better culture to them (i.e. open, sharing, caring).

    As an example, I just gave 3500gp to one of the guys in our core group (who is a friend of a friend) because he needed it to get his Artisan flying skill. I just gave the money to him and don’t need it back. I did that because many of the guys in our core group are like that. They like helping others out because they know in the future those people will in turn help them out. I’m in a position where I’m making 1000+ gp a day from crafting flasks, so I’m glad to help other out just because I can. And of course, gear really isn’t an issue for me because I can buy pretty decent crafted epic gear quite easily.

  • BTW with regards to the dungeons and Wintergrasp, I too was worried about “is that all there is?” Now after reading about some of the upcoming newer dungeons they’ll be introducing in the future, I’m wondering if Bliz has something up there sleeve. For example, I’m wondering if Wintergrasp isn’t just a test bed for something more. Obviously nothing as grand as WAR of course but hopefully something more enjoyable and complex so that it in turn increases the replay value of it. Even if it isn’t, it sounds like at the very least that they will probably be adding newer dungeons every so often which is one nice thing.

    Oh and the word is that these newer dungeons will be much more difficult (i.e. on par with BC dungeons). Sounds like Bliz wanted WotLK dungeons to be easier as they were attracting newer people to raiding (which is they why introduced the DK). These newer dungeons will be much harder though and require greater skills and teamwork to overcome them.

  • I can play a PvE game… but not as my “main” MMO. I’m loving dinking around with LotRO right now, but at the level I’m at, the only “grind” is going out to mine copper nodes. 😉

  • This is the way I see it. WOW’s flexibility failed you. By this I’m directly attacking the addons WOW allows. An easier way to look at this is to step back to early mmorpgs. In games that did NOT have addons to alter/give information the game did not originally mean to be given. Things like dps counters, threat meters, mods that basically hold your hand through encounters that, were they not present, would be quite hard. Times when going to kill a dragon did NOT require specific numbers that produced X amount of dps but instead involved gathering as many of your friends as possible to attempt to slay the boss.

    Basically all of those addons everyone swears by make the game Extremely min/max which on one side can be good but at the same time is VERY generic, robotic, and really when you think about it, it really takes a certain charm out of the entire game. In the hay days of mmorpgs with games like Everquest there was not magical raid number limits, threat meters in numbers on my screen, damage per second reports to see who is doing what etc. It was raw, bring 40+ ppl, be the best you can be without dying boss killing. This new flavor is fine for some but others see it for what it is. Don’t get me wrong here though I am not hating on WOW as I am currently playing and am having fun even though I have done all of the current content and am almost as geared as I can be on my mage, Turning Tide in my hand for those that know what I’m talking about. I am mearly pointing out what many old school mmorpg players are experiencing and why they feel the way they do weather they know why or not.

    With todays mmorpgs having open betas and allowing much more user based customization it’s hard to stop this from happening. No longer do you get encounters that are FRESH and NEW, but instead with a few clicks we can see a video of other people that did it in the beta and oh look you can click here and download the addon that lets your set raid group know exactly when to do stuff and not to do stuff. When you step back and look at it like that it’s kinda lame really.

    So yea I can see why you’re quitting. You gotta admit though Keen leveling up in this expansion had alot of pretty fun questing. One thing that’s for certain however is that WOW will probably always be here just in case you decide to return when other games fail.

  • I posted this on my guild’s website…


    Apologies for a long response but I need to get this off my chest. So here goes…

    It’s not that I hate WOW because I don’t. What I hate most is the pigeon-hole I was forced into once I reached level 80. I either had a choice between raiding and PVP.

    Personally I prefer PVP over raiding. It was the only thing keeping me in WOW. Warlock was fun to PVP with (albeit still frustrating with random Rogue ganks) but overall it was fun.

    Once the expansion and additional talents went public everything changed. In the past most classes, save Rogues, usually stayed away from Warlocks but times have changed. With very low survivability level 80 Warlocks have become fodder for nearly every other class, and very quickly the other classes have learned this. From first-hand experience I’ve seen most classes specifically target me and other Warlocks because we lack the utilities needed to survive. It used to be Priests that were first on other class’s hit list… now its Warlocks.

    And is it any wonder? To the best of my abilities I’ve done my best, but looking at most battlegrounds and arenas and you’ll see Warlocks are absent.

    What’s worse Blizzard even changed the talent paradigm so that destruction seems to be better for PVP while affliction is better for raiding in the long run.

    So with a total clusterfcuk that is Warlock PVP I had decided to drop PVP and concentrate on raiding. In Burning Crusade 70 Warlocks held high raid importance because of their naturally high DPS. When Blizzard homogenized the classes in the last content patch before WOTLK they basically destroyed Warlock’s key use in raids (namely DPS). Warlocks can now be out-DPS’ed by Death Knights, Mages, Hunters, Paladins, and most other classes (save healers). The only way a Warlock can out-DPS those classes is if it had the best of the best gear. But the catch is that in order to obtain such gear you need to raid HARDCORE. Basically a crappy geared Death Knight can dish out more damage than a decent geared Warlock.

    But all of that didn’t do it for me. What did it for me was the mindless gear tread. I mean why am I raiding content? To get better gear? For what? So I can raid The Lich King? That makes absolutely no sense. I should be able to go into the Lich King’s domain and fight the fight with 5 and 10 other players and have fun… NOT worry about if all my gear is purple or if my spell damage is 2200. I’m done with this shit…

    This is why I joined LOTRO. While I realize LOTRO PVP is minimal at best, what brought me back is the content is more casual friendly. There’s more focus on having fun not worrying about what gear you have or how much DPS you can squeeze out of your toon. There are instances that require small (3) and normal (6) fellowships of players, and maybe a couple raid encounters (20) in Moria, but most of it isn’t dependant on OMGUBER gear from what I’ve seen. It’s basically you can group with a bunch of people go off and share an adventure… and that’s basically all I want in an MMO.

    On a side note you can play music in LOTRO or play external songs in the form of .ABC files. I don’t have a video of my toons playing .ABC music but here are some videos

    If it looks cool that’s because it is! 🙂

    You can read a very good review about LOTRO:MoM here

    So anyhow at level 15 I gained access to surnames.

    Vilorth Windstriker (21 Champion)
    Leny Kravitz (19 Minstrel)

    I can buy a home. Haven’t done that yet, but I have all these little nick-nack trophies ready to decorate the walls when I get around to it. 🙂

    Needless to say LOTRO is a far cry from WOW mindless gear thread and that suits me fine.

  • I will never understand the appeal for WOW. I fall for it everytime to, because there’s nothing out there to play. People talk it up like every little thing they do is so neat when it’s really nothing special. I know some people love it and that’s great, but I can only put up with it for like a month at a time.

    I know a lot of people are tired of WOW and I hope Mythic realizes this. The WOTLK honeymoon is wearing off and mythic is getting a second chance. I hope they use this opportunity to restructure their ORVR and end-game content to something more entertaining, then maybe we can see some sort of WAR resurrection come about.

  • I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying Keen, but isn’t Warhammer (in its current state) just another gear grind? That’s the reason I stopped playing – once I found out that you had to run one tier of dungeons in order to be able to run the next set, in order to finally complete a city seige…well, that did it for me. I thought WAR was supposed to be less focused on gear, but it almost turned out to be more focused because of the ward system.

    Or am I missing something about War?

    And yes, the pvp in WoW sucks. I truly think that pvp shouldn’t exist in this game – it was never really designed to be a pvp game from the start. PvP is a matter of how much stam and resilience you can get, otherwise the fights are too fast and you just end up being frustrated.

  • When I hit 80, my main will be done. I do plan on going to a Death Knight after that. When that ceases to become fun, WoW will probably be canceled until next expansion.

    After that, I will probably play LoTRO as my PvE game. When capped, on to the next.

    I am not in a committed relationship with a game 😉

  • Here’s the saddest fact:

    That some people feel as though they “have to” do something…inside a video game.

    How do you enjoy the game without a gear grind? That’s not the question…the question is “Since YOU are obviously not enjoying this game/gear grind..then how do you enjoy it WITH the gear grind?”

    If you are to the point that you think that you HAVE TO grind gear (jeesus, even typing that bores me) then there is no hope for you. Quit playing.

    Or, keep attempting to find fun by doing the same thing, over and over and over.

    Notice I am not saying that you cannot have fun grinding/raiding/being a loot luster. In fact, you can have fun doing that. Everyone does, once in a while.

    But see, here’s the deal: you have done this before, OP. But yet, you try it again. You still think that a video game has certain RULES, so help is beyond you.

    Until you have a different feeling about perceived “rules” you will not enjoy yourself.

    Of course, I am just pulling that from this blog. I do not know you personally.

    Perhaps you just need some balance. Maybe once ya get a bit older? Dunno. One day you might realize that if you are referring to anything as a “grind” then you will probably not enjoy it. Also, if you don’t see a million possibilities for almost any mmo, especially WoW, for fun, then you are going to just be repeating this cycle.
    Keep doing it, though. It reaffirms why I will never let anyone tell me that I “need” to have certain gear or “must” have max this or that to be a valid player, as if I give two poops about what some other person is telling me concerning MY fun.

    Beau Turkey

  • “The WOTLK honeymoon is wearing off and mythic is getting a second chance.”

    Oh man, I can’t stop laughing at comments like this! lol

    WoW, or any part of it, even WITHOUT a honeymoon period has been the largest and most successful MMO out there. No MMO will ever topple it, or ever make something more popular.

    Is it my favorite game? No. But why do some people seem to think that there is this golden crown that WAR will snag from WoW at the first slip up?

    There is no crwon, and no slip-ups. WAR will not gain more subs than it has settled into. It still has plenty of players, don’t get me wrong, but Mythic is busy keeping up with THOSE players, and I am sure they are not planning their next attack on the largest game out there. They know they did no damage and never could.

    “Honeymoon period?” Oh man, a gem. Yeh, soon millions upon millions will realize that WoW sucks. Soon. And they will all flock to WAR, then bloggers can talk about IT’S crappy gear grind.

  • Rolfcats, your screen-name dates you, but that’s ok.

    If you only knew how I played WoW, or how much I have played.

    But seriously, that’s your answer?

    So, are you (please say you are not) arguing that WoW is the most successful, largest and will always be THE largest (unless Blizzard makes another MMO) MMO out there?

    Go ahead, tell me you are saying that they will fail soon. PLLLEEEAAASSSEEE.

    You are also mistaking my facts for saying that I THINK that other games suck, which, of course, I do not. That only shows that you have never read my blog or heard my show, (not that you would want to, I don’t talk about achieving max level in 4 days) on which I talk about all the amazing games out there BESIDES WoW.

    Hey wait till I get back from walking my dogs..I don’t want my sides hurting while I pull on their leashes..


  • Oops. I meant arguing that Blizzard is NOT the largest..blah blah..

    You get my drift, just like Fonzie.

    Beau Turkey

  • I left WAR to come back to WoW for Lich. Haven’t been disappointed and have enjoyed every bit. However, I also know the game will end at 80 and I’m not about to raid every night ala Burning Crusade. I’ve had enough of that.

    But the pure leveling of WoW has been a great break and loads of fun so is keeping me busy right now. Plus, I have a few 70s to level up so lots to stay busy on. Plus the new achievements have me hunting old ground to complete a few.

    I’m sure I’ll return to WAR since it was so much fun (3 guilds falling apart left me working alone in a group game) but until I’ve reached the 80 cap in WoW, they’ve dragged me back in at least temporarily.

  • “Maybe once ya get a bit older?”

    @Beau: Is this really necessary? I think your logically points are well said. No need to ruin them with off hand comments like this.

    @Roflcats: Beau doesn’t sound like a fanboy to me. He’s just the stating facts. WoW will be around for a long time. Actually if anything, I don’t think a PVP game will ever pull a substantial crowd away from it but instead it will be a new PVE game that creates a better experience (which I think is still possible based upon the discussions about questing and so forth that we’ve had on the site here).

  • I can see Beau’s point of view. I think by stating “Maybe once ya get a bit older?” comment is more towards us older folks that don’t get a lot of time to play. (That’s how I read it anyway).

    It would be interesting if by everyone’s name that ever comments on a game if you could see how many hours a week that person plays/played.

    I’m lucky if I get in ~10 hours a week, so things that still fire me up may bore others that have done it a bunch already.

  • Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he’s back! I didn’t think it would last! 😛

    WAR still has many flaws that need attention, however, WoW is and always will be an insane gear-grind-guided raiding treadmill.

    Strangely, the ward system in WAR is starting to mimic this and I’m a bit worried for its future as well. On the plus side, Annihilator gear has been a breeze to earn and from what I’ve heard about Bilerot and Bloodwrought, they’re both fun, quick, and painless compared to the raids of WoW.

    Gear-flation will hit WAR at some point too, so be ready to deal with that. Once all the city-siege decked out guilds start focusing less on PvE and more on RvR, I think you may get the same feeling you got with the arenas and battlegrounds in WoW.

  • Thank you for exploring it for me Keen, I don’t have enough time to find out these thigns on my own anymore for every game that exists. Anton tried it out and did the same things and came to the same conclusion so now that I have two testimonies I trust the idea of resubbing to wow has been laid to rest for me. I will definitely try out Blizzard’s next MMO but if the same “end-game” idea persists it will be disappaointing.

  • @Rosie: In a way it’s beginning to slowly move that way. As Snafzg said, the ward system is beginning to mimic a sort of grind. However, here’s how I look at it. You can get this gear VERY easily. Yes, even easier than simply running a dungeon. You follow the zerg around in RvR and the loot is showered upon you. I’m level 23 on my SH with almost a full set of Devastator (set gear) that I can’t use until 28+ Lvl and Renown.

    I think the big difference here is that the content to obtain loot is much more dynamic in WAR. The only thing that feels like a “grind” is influence. But only if you want it to be. I ignore it and just enjoy the PvP – which I can EASILY do without anything but greens and still “top the damage charts” or play my role in PvP very well.

    Also, just to point it out since you may have missed it, there are two ways to get these set items that give wards. You can RvR -or- PvE and you can mix and match them for the wards. So you can do dungeons exclusively for the wards or you can RvR exclusively or you can do both. It’s really flexible. Personally, I’d rather the ward system not exist. I believe they did it to provide some form of “carrot on a stick” for the crowd that desperately needs a reason to do everything.

  • A lot of people are making comments about WAR that seem dated. Mythic implemented changes in December that have changed world PVP from semi-active to very active. WAR world PVP feels epic now.

    What makes WAR PVP stand out are the game mechanics, e.g. positional control, collision detection, etc. Skill matters more than gear. Here is a good example:


    I’d much rather lose to a better player than to a better-geared played.

    In WAR, I don’t have to invest huge chunks of time to get geared, because gear isn’t as big a deal. I spend 80+% of my time doing things I enjoy (hanging out and PVP’ing), whereas in WoW at endgame I spent 80+% of my time grinding to remain competitive in terms of gear, because the game mechanics make gear king.

    My overall impression between the difference between Mythic and Blizzard’s approach to endgame:
    – Blizzard creates a lot of gear treadmills that keep players playing to “keep up”. WoW tends to be more attractive to PVE fans
    – Mythic creates an environment where players can bash each other faces in 24/7 in a variety of PVP contexts (world RVR, scenarios, keep battles). WAR tends to be more attractive to PVP fans

    It all depends on what you find more fun and entertaining. I certainly fall into Mythic’s camp.

  • Have there been any improvements to WAR’s UI responsiveness, obscene load times, and general graphics chopping since the first couple of months after release?

    I ask these questions only because it was the quality of polish and gameplay that brought me back to WoW….I loved the concept of WAR but the implimentation wasn’t what I wanted it to be. Which is most certianly not to say it was in a really bad state. WAR was the smoothest MMO launch I’ve EVER seen. Mythic deserves major kudo’s for that alone.

  • @Pignasty: Yes, Not really, and yes. I guess the only thing they haven’t changed from your list are the load times – I assume you mean the loading screens, right? They’ve always seemed a bit high to me too and really have not changed.

  • I tell ya what, this game has been running better and better for me. With the changes Mythic as been making and the 3 or 4 new Nvidia video card patches (since launch), this game is night and day for me.

  • Well, I mostly agree with you. I had the luck though to have a friend rank (hardcore raiding caused my WoW burnout) in 1 of the better guilds on my server (Bladefist), wich ment that I was allowed in Naxx 10 man 5 mins after I dinged 80. I had that luck, but I can understand why you saw the gear grind: my dps sucked balls, MAJOR balls. I could’ve never ever did Naxx if my guild wouldn’t be nice, they already cleared 25 as well, they can 9 or 8 man 10-man Naxx, I didn’t really bothered them so I could tag along. But yea, if you want to be effective in there, you need to get a decent amount of gear from normal instances and heroics. And although I like to see the instances, and all of them are really beautifully designed, look amazing. But the idea of farming them to death just because you need an item, yuch. Now needing gear is one thing, but the worst in WoW is the áwfull lootsystem: item drops are random. Some people get the item they need in the first instance run, some need to farm it for a whole year (true story: paladin in my previous guild who needed a mace).

    Now about the PvP, there I want to blaim the community and not the game. I found some people who weren’t interested in the gear and arena point grind. The difference is truly night and day; no more gear grind, no more point grind. I did it with full PvE gear, actually managed pretty decent, probably because of the huge resilliance nerf. It’s nice to do PvP for fun again.

    Now about Wintergrasp, the first feeling I got was “Damn, this is what WAR should’ve been.” I agree with your points that it doesn’t have any world impact, but damn I had a blast compared to keep sieges. WAR’s sieges were cramped in a single gate, more of a zerg. Now Wintergrasp felt like war to me; I once looked into the distance (yay for engi goggles), saw about 4 Horde siege engines going towards the fortress walls followed by about 2 dozen Horde players. Meanwhile, Alliance was lining up there siege engines near the walls and an equivalent amount of Alliance players were gathering near them. What followed was simply awesome: the alli siege engines started raining hell upon the advancing horde’s, the players engaged eachother, explosions everywhere. But a battering ram managed to destroy a wall, but most of the players died. After that, alliance gathered up behind the hole, hordes of emmmm horde flooding through the hole batteling it out with defending alliance. My conclusion was simple: wow, THIS is war. WAR’s keep sieges really felt meeh compared to that. Maybe it’s just my server, it’s small but the community is tight, hence we really wánt to kick eachothers asses 😉

    But even then, WoW is already burning me out, can’t wait untill Darkfall, and if that sucks it’s LOTRO.

  • @ Keen: I’ve come to realize that the load screen times are in fact the fault of the in game quest tracking system. I use a similar mod in WoW, and when turned on the load times are comperable to WAR. Turned off, however, there is a noticable difference. To my mind, the ability to turn off the integrated quest tracking system at the character select screen in WAR would be a god send. It certianly would have made me, personally, more likely to keep my subscription active. I can also tell a difference in frame rates in teh game when using Questhelper. Perhaps someone simply copied over the Warhammer code? I know the memory usage for quest tracking combined with the ToK is quite heavy.

  • @Beau

    The realization that WOW is nothing more than a mindless gear tread at 80 is going to eventually happen to you.

  • Yeah. I was looking forward to WotLK for months. I was preparing for it. I hurried to get Hand of A’dal (Kael’thas – no random group raided the guy anymore, but finally I got into a successful one) and then I was amazed by the early WotLK areas.

    Despite all the improvements and effort, in the end it is again WoW. Who expected anything else. Nobody, and I did not either.

    But I was surprised how quickly that bored the hell out of me. I did not even enjoy the expansion for one months, then I had done Naxx and felt already bored after boss 4. They dumbed down difficulty and doing the same dailies every day somehow felt more than work than playing a game.

    I prefer to play Mount & Blade nowadays… offline, but a fascinating new (or rather old) kind of game with mounted medieval combat and mass battle sieges .

    I just fear for 2009 and MMOs. I fear for Guild Wars 2 to flop and have little confidence in the other announced games, too.

  • Ha, I already spend a month and 8 days getting to 80 😉 That’s really the biggest improvement of the game: the road on getting to 80, it’s magnificent. I barely hear anyone about it though, I think it’s seen as “just a chore” to get to the max level, where the game apperantly should start. At least that’s what I hear lots of people say. Well, newsflash: at the moment, the majority of the content is pre-80, so why ignore so much of it and just rush to 80? Glad to see that not everyone does it like that though.

    It’s true that it’s the ‘same old’ WoW at 80 though. I’m already reluctant to log in. But even then, if I have fun with a game for so long (over 2 months) I call the game a success. Barely any game manages to hold my attention for so long 😉 And no game is going to last forever, nor does WoW.

  • “# ryan Says:
    January 8th, 2009 at 3:35 pm


    The realization that WOW is nothing more than a mindless gear tread at 80 is going to eventually happen to you.”

    Here’s what my wife said when she read this, and I quote:


    For a few minutes.

    Obviously, you don’t know me.

    Also, please continue to post such over dramatic emo crap for me. It makes me think that indeed, there are people out there that cannot think for themselves. Strange, I know. But it’s true.


  • i dont think you are old enough to have a wife, or mature enough. stop posting lies beau lol

    its pure joy to read these WOW fanboys commenting on how WOW > other MMO.. if keen said WOTLK is not fun for him then its the truth .. from his perspective.. and thats what this blog all about. its pointless to force someone’s perspective into others.. fun factor is different for everyone.

    some people enjoyed raiding the same instance over and over again for gear obviously (or ‘forced’ to enjoy ?) then again some ppl loath the obvious gear grind in WOW.

    hey if you having great time in WOW then congrats , write it in your own blog but forcing your opinion on other and belittling ppl with different gaming taste is a real measure of immaturity..


  • Mathias, oh Mathias.

    “i dont think you are old enough to have a wife, or mature enough. stop posting lies beau lol”

    *Beau walks into work, bleary eyed, tired*

    Beau: “Hey, guys. What a night. Up all night doing taxes for my wife.”

    Weird co-worker Phil: “Your WIFE goes to college!”

    This blog might be about a million things, but if there’s one thing that runs common, it’s the vein of “Blame the Game, not the Gamer.”

    In this comment discussion area, I am arguing that he does not have to do anything, much less something he doesn’t want to do. That is like saying “WoW has FORCED me to roleplay, with all it’s wonderful settings and cute characters..”

    Now, if you continue to call me a “WoW fanboy”, I will have to continue to point you in the direction of my podcast and blog, both which are, at the very least, evidence that I am nowhere near a WoW fanboy.

    Now, explain this one to me, for crissakes: “some people enjoyed raiding the same instance over and over again for gear obviously (or ‘forced’ to enjoy ?) then again some ppl loath the obvious gear grind in WOW.”

    …er, what?

    Are you trying to say I am a raider, or that I am one that enjoys a gear grind?..a gear grind that the OP feels is a forced activity, like slavery.

    Anyway, if you feel as though it is indeed a forced activity, than for once I have met someone that has a weaker will than me. Hell, I am so weak for ‘iddle puppies that I would wear a embroidered sweater if it had a basset hound on it.


  • Okay guys, let’s cool it off a bit. We can debate and discuss without resorting to name calling or losing tempers and reason.

    @Beau: If that’s a common theme here, to “blame the game, not the gamer”, then you really have not read my blog much. Feel free to use the search function – I’ve blamed the players for quite a bit in the past couple of months.

    I trust you guys can honor my wishes here and keep it civil. 🙂

  • I’ve been thinking about going back to WAR but I just feel too let down by yet another game which launched too early and don’t see why I should reward them with my hard earned cash.

    Someone mentioned how good the launch was, any game that appears before it’s ready has a fail launch by default!

  • @Beau:
    “Anyway, if you feel as though it is indeed a forced activity, than for once I have met someone that has a weaker will than me. Hell, I am so weak for ‘iddle puppies that I would wear a embroidered sweater if it had a basset hound on it.”

    Keen’s point, and my point, is that if you want to enjoy a certain part of the game, you have to grind gear first. It’s not that your forced to grind gear, but if you want to do certain activities in WoW you need to do it. If you don’t care about that content, the need for a gear grind is gone as well. But Keen wanted to do the cool stuff, Naxx and beyond, but wasn’t able to because he lacked the gear, thus he had to farm instances to get it. I can imagine why someone doesn’t like that, that you’re forced to do a certain thing íf you want to do something you like.

  • @ Renko: I mentioned that the launch of WAR was stellar compared to any other MMO that I’ve ever seen. That does not mean I thought it was a stellar game, only that it most assuredly has the potential to be one in the future. Its certianly in a better position than WoW was 6 months after launch in regards to being casual friendly and enjoyable to the average user. However to deny that the game needs some polish, content addition, and feeling of immersion from an RPG aspect isn’t really reasonable.

    Then again, if the design of the game is to chain que Scenario’s while waiting around for keep seige’s to happen….well is that really different from running a dungeon in order to gear up for a raid instance? Same grind, different package. Its all about the quality of the gameplay and the polish level. There will be morons and immature people in any game.

  • Yea I’m gonna have to agree with you Keen. I have 2 level 80 toons now and I am not a dungeon guy. I play both Alliance and Horde, and I have noticed that the quality of Horde pvp players has dropped big time since Lich King came out. The pvp in WAR is more leveled out I think, I don’t remember ever getting 1 or 2 shot killed in war. I might start my War account back up this weekend. I think the main thing is that I need to find a server with a lot of people, thats what killed it for me when I quit. I could never find a fight. I have a level 30 RR 29 Engineer does anyone have any server suggestions if I do start back up?

  • This discussion is starting to get really interesting.

    However I don’t think it’s necessary to get all emotional over a game. You see things your way, someone else sees it an other way.

    I totally understand where Keen’s coming from.

    WOW is a gear grind, nothing else. If you want to experience the endgame content, you have to walk the grind. And do your time.
    If you’re not up to that, you won’t be experiencing the end-raids (except if you have a cool guild like Cowabungaa’s).

    From normal to heroic, and from heroic to raids.
    In the end, it’s all up to you how you spend your time ingame. But don’t expect Blizzard to change what appears to be a winning formula.

    That doens’t mean I like the formula (not totally that is). I resubscribed after giving the free 10 day trial a shot, and am currently casually questing with my DeathKnight (lvl 69). I heared rumors that WOW got all casual and insta-reward / easypie, and that is true, to a certain extent.

    But the neverending quest for better gear and that piece of armor that has +1 more crit on it has exploded and is more present than ever. But do I mind? Not really. I know this when I login and I adjust my playstyle to it.

    I will never ever experience the endgame raids WOW has to offer, nor do I want to put in the effort required to do so. I have two close friends that are heavy raiders and are into a number one guild of the server (lots of server first and all that). But when I see how much time they both dedicate to the game in order to get there … I don’t know.

    So is there nothing else to do then? Sure there is. But that’s for different for each and everyone.

    Will I keep playing once I reach 80 and have no real goals left in the game? I don’t know, we’ll see when we get there.

    About that other game, WAR.
    I haven’t logged for over 3 weeks. My WP is in the early stages of tier 3 and I just find it to be very boring. Again the same boring PvE quests, the same boring public quests. oRvR is cool, if you’re lucky to be playing on a decent populated server.

  • I just want to add that I saw this post coming from miles and miles away. I’m somewhat familiar with you from your blog and podcast Keen and the minute I saw that you had started playing WoW again I thought to myself “This is not going to end well”. =) The changes that came with WotLK (though I think they are awesome and the best thing to happen to the game ever) did not change the fundamentals of the “system” as it were. If from your perspective, progressive dungeons that you raid and can get loot are a “gear grind” then you were never going to like WoW in the long term. But the truth of the matter is, lots and lots of people don’t see it that way. They don’t raid just for petty selfish reasons like loot. They (including me) raid because its fun to do so. AND it is actually easier today than it has ever been to get started raiding. The barrier to entry to go into places like Naxx is really not all that high so you shouldn’t be believing those people who said otherwise. The only real barrier to raiding (and having fun while doing it) is having a good guild with people that you enjoy being around.

    And no, as Beau (my husband, yes he’s a grown up with a wife) said you don’t ever “have to” do anything, ever, in a game. If you don’t want to, then don’t. Or just don’t play that game. But that doesn’t make WoW broken or bad just because you don’t like it. And it certainly doesn’t make WAR any less of a “gear grind” if you have the mindset that games must be played in a certain way.

    And as far as WoW PvP goes I could have told you before you even started that you weren’t going to like it. Even though I don’t really understand what it is that you are looking for in PvP (because PvP is not really my thing), its a really safe bet that WoW was never going to be “it”. Because again, like I said, the basics of WoW did not change in WotLK.

    If you hated WoW pre-wrath you’ll probably hate it today, eventually, after you have fun leveling for a couple months. =)

  • “I trust you guys can honor my wishes here and keep it civil. 🙂 ”

    Alright, alright…sorry. You know if we were all sitting in a bar (well, ‘cept for many of the dudes posting here, they aren’t old enough to drink yet) we’d be “busting each others balls.”

    Anyway, I’d be deleting my comments in a heartbeat, but hey, that’s just me! lol

  • “Keen’s point, and my point, is that if you want to enjoy a certain part of the game, you have to grind gear first.”

    Yes, thank you. PERFECT.

    OF COURSE you would have to grind gear to experience the part of the game that you think requires you to grind gear for. Also, what part of that sentence does NOT say “The game is forcing me to grind gear.”?

    That’s like saying “If you get a car, and go to get a paint job, you WILL need to buy paint.”
    If you are choosing (notice, not being FORCED) to play a certain way, you will have to do certain things.

    One time on our show, my co-host (not Leala) asked a dev why she has to look like every other Healer (this was for Vanguard, not WoW) that is going after their Uber set of armor.
    Basically, she was asking why, if she goes after her highest set of healing armor (a certain set) does she have to look like all the other people that were going after the SAME ARMOR.
    I swear I could HEAR the dev shake his head.

    He pointed out that, indeed, if you are going after that uber leet goal like everyone else, you are going to run into certain patterns (in this case, armor looks) that will make you go “Why do I have to do this all the time??” That is because you, the PLAYER, are CHOOSING to go down that path of “gear grind.”

    Here’s some proof, and I don’t even need names and numbers to prove it: There are players out there, right now, that I know personally, that raid and do just fine…and guess what? They do not have the best gear…far from it.

    But wait, how is this POSSIBLE? How? How do millions of soccer mom’s and dad’s everywhere play at the high level without memorizing crit chances and boss fights?

    Because here’s the secret: that gear you are grinding after will hardly make much of a difference in a group of 10-20 people, I promise. Your .6 percent extra crit chance will not be noticed.
    That is why you use parsers: to SHOW you, with a chart, what you could never see or feel otherwise.

    But, if you want to choose to keep going after that gear, and telling yourself that somehow, somewhere, someone gave you a set of “rules” to follow, go for it.

    The last thing I do is allow someone to dictate fun to me.

    Beau Turkey

  • “But that doesn’t make WoW broken or bad just because you don’t like it.”

    It really depends on how you view reality. If you think reality is absolute then I suppose you could make that case. But if you believe that everyone has their own “view” of the world (aka their own reality), then yes in fact WoW IS broken or bad (for Keen) and no amount of arguing is going to sway him.

    I happen to agree with him, but I realize that my view of the game is vastly different than others. This has NOTHING to do with maturity or having a wife or even the color of your socks. The REALITY is that everyone views the world differently and the only waste of time is trying to tell someone that their view is wrong.**

    ** Disclaimer: That is unless your view involves you breaking laws…but that is a whole different ball of wax!

  • @Beau: I did Sartharion 10 and 25 man in quest greens/blues. 😉 I’ve done the WoW 40-man oldschool raids (Much harder than today’s stuff) when no one knew how to do them and we were the pioneers inventing the strategies. I’m very well aware of how capable good players can be in sub-par gear.

    I think the problem here is that you’re trying to apply vast overtones to my very specific experience with the game. In WoW, what -I- want out of the game is to experience all of the content. The problems that I run into are the barriers of gear. Naxxramas is only going to be the top PvE raid for so long – they’ve already announced more are on the way. In order to do those, I’m going to have to participate in the meta-game of playing simply to get gear to raid to get gear to raid. I don’t enjoy that, thus I do not enjoy WoW. That doesn’t mean WoW is a bad game – as you’ll notice I have not said that here. It means it’s just not for me.

    And again, I believe players ARE forced into this gear mentality. You absolutely -must- have the gear to compete in WoW’s PvP. That gear grind is absolutely unavoidable unless you want to lose. If you enjoy losing every time and fancy yourself a masochist then I suppose you could argue that gear is not mandatory.

    In the end, though, gear means everything in WoW and I would rather spend my time in games where gear is less important than gameplay.

    This is why -I- did not enjoy WoW 2 years ago and why I do not enjoy it today. This doesn’t mean that if you enjoy it that you shouldn’t or that my reasons for disliking the game should have any impact on your enjoyment.

  • “Alright, alright…sorry. You know if we were all sitting in a bar (well, ‘cept for many of the dudes posting here, they aren’t old enough to drink yet) we’d be “busting each others balls.”

    I really hope that this wasn’t a form of criticizing the maturity, of the posters on this blog, just because they do not agree with you. I have listened to your podcasts, Leala. I know that you are a very intelligent well spoken individual. I do however take offense to the insult.

    I have played WoW for about 4 years now. I have done many of the high end raids. I have achieved a Duelist title in 2 arena seasons. I have done enough BGs to gain the Conqueror title on a rogue and a priest. I have made many great friends in the game.

    Blizzard’s polished product is second to none. Their formula is obviously the most successful in the MMORPG market. Looking at their number of players makes it very clear that many people love the game.

    Having said all of that, WoW has grown stale for me. Repeating the same instances over and over again used to be fine for me, but I no longer have the desire to do them over and over again in order to obtain a piece of gear that will be obsolete in a few months. Many players, that I know, do not want to run the instances/raids after they get the gear that they want.

    I am hoping to discover something new and fresh in an mmo. I would like to have something more to play for than just gear. The ideas in Darkfall are very appealing to me. I have never played on open sandbox type of game, so I really don’t know how it will be. It seems to me that there will be much more to play for than just gear. I just hope that the game play is fun and engaging.

  • First of all, did you not notice that the “busting your balls” comment was made by ME, BEAU TURKEY and not my wife.

    Her screen name was accidentally still signed in. Did you not notice the comment, RIGHT after that comment saying this?

    Also, “busting your balls”, although crude, is in no way an insult. Have you ever seen the Sopranos? It means “Just messing with you.” Christ.

    “@Beau: I did Sartharion 10 and 25 man in quest greens/blues. 😉 I’ve done the WoW 40-man oldschool raids (Much harder than today’s stuff) when no one knew how to do them and we were the pioneers inventing the strategies. I’m very well aware of how capable good players can be in sub-par gear.

    So here you are saying that gear is NOT the issue, being that you did just fine in “sub par” gear.

    Then you go on to say:
    “And again, I believe players ARE forced into this gear mentality. You absolutely -must- have the gear to compete in WoW’s PvP. That gear grind is absolutely unavoidable unless you want to lose. If you enjoy losing every time and fancy yourself a masochist then I suppose you could argue that gear is not mandatory.

    In the end, though, gear means everything in WoW and I would rather spend my time in games where gear is less important than gameplay.”

    So wait a second….it mattered LESS back then, when you say it was “harder” than it does NOW, because it is “easier”?

    C’mon man, concentrate!

    You do not know the meaning of the word “forced.” Again, there are players (by your own admission) that do “just fine” with sub-par gear.

    It applies to PVP as well. Hell, I AM one of those players. I can beat someone in pvp 3 levels above me and with better gear on…I HAVE done it.

    You need to just admit that you are tired of doing the same thing. But remember, it is YOU doing the same thing. It is not the GAME making you do the same thing.


  • “well, ‘cept for many of the dudes posting here, they aren’t old enough to drink yet”

    Was the offensive part to me. This is an insult to the maturity/age of the posters here. Ty for clearing this up though. You have restored my faith in Leala’s awesomeness, but need to work on your own image a bit. Your heated tirades are not helping you either.

  • @Beau: You’re reading into what I’m saying and inferring points which strengthen your argument when you should be taking what I say at face value. As I’ve said multiple times already, I stopped before it became an issue. Sartharion 25 man is a 25-man raid that I was able to do in subpar gear – BUT – there are more on the way that will require me to gear out on not only Sartharion but Naxxramas. It’s the gear grind that I do not want to participate in.

    I know the definition of forced and I believe, as illustrated by the other comments here, that others do as well. It seems you’re the odd man out here. And again, if you love it and don’t feel that any of my reasons are valid then that’s your perogative.

    We are starting to go in circles though and that’s where debate and discussion turns into argument – and that’s where I draw the line. Let’s end it here and say that we simply disagree about WoW’s game design.

  • “WoW, or any part of it, even WITHOUT a honeymoon period has been the largest and most successful MMO out there. No MMO will ever topple it, or ever make something more popular.”


    Hardly and I trying to disagree with you here because I do think WAR and WOW have every bit in common the grinding that is the staple of ALL MMO’s (I played EQ1, COH/COV, WOW, WAR, EQ2, LOTRO, AnarchyOnline, FFXI).

    But the above quoted comment is not only fanboyish, but also probably not gonna be true in 5 years. Similar things were said about EQ1 and well, that proves itself right there.

  • Keen, I felt disappointment in Wrath of the Lich King the moment I stepped into Howling Fjord and was told to kill 10 things. I took a break from Warhammer and will probably go back now that several patches have come out since I left.

  • Oh dear, oh dear. So sad, the mature man’s “wife” is coming online to defend his reputation… I think we’ve all seen this before. Makes me shudder still.

    Coming up next: Beau promosing to get his wife on Ventrilo to prove she’s a real woman…. 🙁

  • Leala Turkey is a real woman. You can listen to her podcast’s; Epic Dolls, Spouse Aggro (with Beau), and the short lived Destruction Dolls.

    They are a very nice couple with strong opinions. They are not deserving of anymore insults or harassment. Allowing a difference of opinion to lead to personal attacks is reprehensible.

  • @keen

    sorry if im not so nice to beau , its just his immature discussion style is irritating. the ‘holier than thou’ attitude is annoying too. id rather heard mature discussion other than insult hurling ala VN-board but..

    thank goodness leala come here to cool of heads

  • The Wow endgame is still going strong for me.

    Doing about 2-3 heroics a night, and a 10-man naxx/OS here and there.

    Still having fun, but that might be because I play a healer.

  • I never even re-subscribed to WoW because I knew I’d feel the same way you feel. I was a beta tester in WoW, was a Marshall, have over 50K+ PvP kills (on a “normal” server) did the PvE raiding content with an active guild but in the end…

    I have a JOB in real life, I don’t need a second one. WoW at the end-game is a JOB – not a game. It’s silly, repetative, unrewarding and just not fun. You can play different classes, do all the quests, earn 1,000,000 gold but when you level cap and look at what’s next (rep, heroic’s, hours of organized raiding, killing the same model mob for the 10,000’s time, etc) then you’re looking at wasted time.

    MMORP’s need to be less organized and more “jump in and play”. That’s the future of MMORP in my opinion and because I think WAR has done a good job at producing that kind of game I continue to play it.

  • Hey Keen, You couldn’t have said it better. I too have now canceled my wow account. I got sick of the gear grind, and to me the gear grind has become even more dumbed down than BC. It became too easy to get gear and gain reputation. There is no more sense of accomplishment.

    I am looking forward to the Sandbox concept of Darkfall. The servers were timing out before I could get my preorder in… I hope I make it into the next wave : )

  • Playing since WoW launch. Account cancelled yesterday,WotLK is a slap in the face for the “older” WoW Veterans, not..As said, grind grind grind, no pvp balance even more now as they “succeded” to balance *cough*.
    But I must say that I disagree a little with some here. Its less necessary grinding for rep and gear. You just run the same 2 25s until you got the gear, thats it. They tried to open all content to the broad player mass, now Runes of Magic requires more skill and effort to reach anything.

    I hope Darkfall offers besides the big pvp aspect also a little neat pve 😉