NOTE: Before you read, some people have already begun to misunderstand what this is about. I’m not drawing comparisons between lakes or kiddy pools and particular games (I’m asking YOU to do that after you read the next sentence). It’s about the elements of game design as they pertain to what makes a kiddy pool a kiddy pool and a lake a lake for YOU.  It’s about the total experience in a mmorpg and how it can relate to the total experience YOU are capable of having based on how YOU view the elements of these scenarios. Do not read MY feelings on the subject as definitive because they’re not. Do not read these as analogies – read them as drawing comparisons.
NOTE #2: I’ve added another element to this discussion. Race Tracks vs. Legos. Let’s look at what makes a race track a race track, and Legos, Legos.  I’ll add my thoughts in the comments as not to completely disrupt the flow of the blog entry.
Look closely at the pictures above. What do you see? Now think about MMO’s (MMORPG’s, MMOG’s, MMOFPS, etc.) and look again. What do you see now?
Now that you’ve taken a second to look at the pictures and think about them before and after thinking about MMO’s, what words, images, details, feelings, etc., come to mind? Try to work those ideas out of your head into something you can explain, then write them down somewhere. I’m going to write what came to mind for me below.
Size – The lake is larger than the kiddy pool.
Scope – The picture of the lake brings trees, shoreline, a large body of water, and brings a somewhat overwhelming sense of atmosphere. The Kiddy Pool focuses in closely on details like the water, the pool, the toys, the dog, and the hose; when we look at the pool it’s much easier to take it all in.
Realism – The kiddy pool excites the imagination with pictures of characters. There’s a toy in the water to play with and a little friend. In a way, it’s a highly stylized experience. The lake has very little creativity because it’s precisely what you expect to see in nature.
Effort – The lake probably took hundreds or thousands of years to get where it’s at. The kiddy likely took mere minutes. To swim in the lake would require that you know how to swim. It would take more time to swim aross, to tread water, and to experience everything this lake has to offer. The Kiddy Pool doesn’t require much effort – you can sit in it and splash around without the need for training or additional knowledge. The kiddy pool is user friendly for everyone.
Age – When I look at the Kiddy Pool I initially think “children”. When I look at the Lake I initially think “older people”.  However, both can be enjoyed by people of all ages.
Freedom – The kiddy pool is a confined space. Not much can fit in the kiddy pool. The kiddy pool requires those enjoying it to use a bit more of their imagination or to accept that what goes on here will require you to ‘let go’ and enjoy. It’s a controled environment.  The Lake can hold boats, thousands of people, fish, and allows people thee ability to explore their own methods of enjoyment.
Safety – There is very little that could go wrong in the Kiddy Pool. It’s closely supervised and the risk is low. If the pool empties then the hose is closeby to ensure the safety of the person and their enjoyment. The Lake on the otherhand poses a much greater threat. By comparison it’s much less safe to swim in a lake or to partake in lake activities. If the lake dries up or that bad stuff the green people are always warning us about comes to pass or a fire sweeps through… what then? It’s out of our control. A lot rests on faith and luck here.
I’ll stop there.
[My Thoughts on the Race Track and the Legos will be in the comments section.]
I can think of several games that would best be represented by each of these pictures (the pool and the lake). Keep in mind that it won’t be the same for everyone since it’s based entirely upon how we percieve the games we play and experiences associated with these images. World of Warcraft comes to mind as the perfect example of the kiddy pool. It has that stylized fun in a controled environment where the entertainment is spoonfed to the player carefuly. It’s designed to ensure players are always having fun with the ability to get in and get out quickly. Players can introduce elements to the game (like the ball or the dog) that will increase the fun and no one will be bothered by it. If the developers want to change WoW then it’s easy to change just like it’s easy to manipulate and alter the kiddy pool experience.
When I think about what games would match the lake, I think about games like SWG, UO, VG, or EQ1. I think about a more open space with the potential for the player to enjoy what the world allows them to do, but it’s a much harsher place with the potential for anything to happen. Players enjoying these games have a much harder time accepting things being spoonfed to them because they often go to the lake, or to these games, for a specific purpose. People often have to make their own fun in these games because they are more ‘sandbox’. If you found a nice spot at the lake to enjoy the sun and a drink then you’re probably having a good time… but what happens when that group of teenagers show up with their loud music, drugs, and rowdy behavior?  In a way, this is very much a PvP – person vs. person – experience that you might not be able to control, whereas in the kiddy pool if someone is disrupting your fun then you can kick them out or have your parents call their parents and never speak to them again and …. ahem. There is a lot more commitment involved with the lake type games and you have a lot more to lose.
There was a time that I really, really enjoyed the kiddy pools and would have opted for that experience over taking a trip to a lake any day. Heck, I’d be lying if I said I don’t still like the kiddy pools (or the slightly upgraded versions). But there’s something about going to the lake(river, ocean, etc) that I think a lot of people can understand. It’s a different experience – often times a more ‘unknown’ experience.
If you really want to make your brain hurt, you can take this even ‘deeper’ and think specifically about PvP/PvE or one particular mechanic vs. another in a Kiddy Pool vs. Lake situation or don’t use such extremes like I did. Think “kiddy pool vs. Swimming pool” instead or other comparisons.  Sometimes it’s hard to put into words what your brain thinks when you look at the pictures, but try. Chances are you won’t be able to truly do your pereception justice, as I know I have not, but it’s still fun to try.
OK. But then the supposed hardcore PvP belongs to the kiddy pool. As well as “mature” content. :>
This is a bad and insulting analogy, and suddenly you take the turn to a PvE vs PvP debate. That was what you were all about to begin with.
Taking away the safety belt does not make your car a formula 1 car either. So much about BAD analogies, Keen.
They’re not really analogies, Longasc. You’ve missed the point if you think I’m insulting anything here … and how you took from this that I turned to a PvE vs. PvP debate… huh? You read it right?
It’s supposed to be a “what comes to mind” exercise, not a “WoW is to kiddy pool as SWG is to Lake”. It’s about the elements of the total MMO experience as they pertain to each individual when looked at side by side to how you perceive these two pictures. It’s far from an analogy.
Hopefully, after I’ve clarified, it doesn’t go over your head again.
Keen – I think you need to program in an “eject” button.
Hopefully people don’t take offense here or miss the point. Don’t look at it like I’m comparing the games – I’m not. It’s also not supposed to be about a “what do I like more?” or what’s “better” about the two. It’s all about what makes a kiddy pool a kiddy pool, and what makes a lake a lake.
If necessary, I’ll go to a “Swimming pool” vs. “jaccuzi” comparison. That way people don’t find themselves feeling inferior because they like one over the other.
I was just hoping that people would be able to have an intelligent discussion and look at the amusement park vs. sandbox experience when looked at from a different point of view. If I had pitted Disneyland against a sandbox at a park then I’d probably be attacked by the crew saying I’ve glorified one particular one over the other.
If people want to immediately look at it as an analogy, then let me at least set one up for you. An anology is drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect. Make the analogy about elements of game design as they pertain to a kiddy pool or a lake, not about the pool or the lake relating to a particular game.
The lake isn’t fun if a gang of people just roam around kicking your ass every time they see ya.
Its not that a game like Darkfall, UO, EQ, etc.. is to hard, it is simply I have limited time to play games, am working professional, so when I do game, I have no desire to roam around in gangs of friends, I want to “play” much of the content so I have to solo and don’t like dealing with roaming jackass groups of players making themselves fell better about their sorry life at the fastfood stand by gankin others online.
I do think darkfall has its place, not for me, but I look forward to reading blogs about it.
And you can say what you want, your site, but you post immediately will be perceived as an insult to some games, me, i don’t care as I’m 2years removed from any MMOG except the WAR beta I played, didn’t buy the live version as I didn’t enjoy the limited play I felt it had. But I did read your writeups and enjoyed those. so I look forward to reading about Darkfall as well.
What makes a race track, a race track? What makes Legos, Legos? Looking at both images with an eye to Game Design (specifically MMORPGs), one can draw a few immediate conclusions. I draw the following few quick observations:
Structure: Both the Legos and the Race track have structure. However, the race track (based on brand, but that’s irrelevant), can only go together a certain number of ways before it would cease to function as a race track. Legos, however, are able to be put together in many different ways based on how the person playing with them chooses to connect them. Regardless of how they are put together, the function of Legos is never lost.
Linear: Similar to my thoughts on structure, a race track usually only goes in one direction. The speed at which you can go around the track can vary and the pitfalls (now’days they have boulders to crash and all sorts of things I never had as a kid) are all pre-scripted, albeit possibly random. It’s hard to mess up a race track. Legos are less linear, but can absolutely be linear if one wishes to look at them in such a way.
Setup and Commitment: Building something with Legos, something really grand with a lot of detail, is a lot of work these days. Playing with Legos can actually be tiresome and at times bothersome. You want to play that Western Lego set with the Carriage that busts open the side of the bank…. but you have to build up to it. Your toy doesn’t work to its full potential right out of the box like it does with a race track (which takes SOME building, but not much – especially the more you do it).
Risk vs. Reward: Legos can fall apart and your vision of what you were creating all along can crumble to pieces right before your eyes. Someone else can come along and wreck it for you entirely. The race track (let’s assume someone doesn’t come and step on it to permanently break it) doesn’t have the same risks. The reward, for me, in the end, feels like I’ve accomplished something when I build a Lego set. Sometimes building legos is half the fun and when I get my final product I don’t quite enjoy it like I did when I was building up to it. The Race track, while not taking much effort to assemble, provides me with a constant rate of enjoyment.
Lasting Appeal: I see the Lego games with more lasting appeal because of their ability to become something else. That is, if I can put up with the effort involved. Race Tracks don’t seem to last me as long, but I know that I can always count on that Race Track to give me the same experience each time or to be a non-stop reliable experience.
Expansions: Both race tracks -and- Legos can expand. I can buy more Legos and I can buy more Track or cars to run on the track. However, in order for the Legos to be something congruent then I will have to look specifically for the type of Legos that I want and make sure that they fit my set or else I may just end up with buckets and buckets of random pieces that overwhelm me in the end. The race track, whether I buy loops or just more straight track, will always come full circle and be the same thing it was from the beginning.
In the end, both are fun. However, the way they go about amusing me is different. In one I can quickly enjoy the same fun but it’s repetitive. The other feels like I’m building up to something and working towards something but in the end I’m committing a lot of time and effort (relatively speaking)hoping that I enjoy the destination as much as the journey.
Do you perhaps perceive something I might not have included, or feel differently about the type of experiences you can have with Legos and Race Tracks?
I feel that both of these concepts have their strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes I want to jump into some pvp with my friends, and sometimes I just want to relax and do some solo play pve. I will continue to subscribe to one of each type so that I can play the one that I am in the mood for at the time.
Keep in mind that it’s not about what’s better or worse. It’s not about their strengths and weaknesses. It’s about drawing comparisons to what makes them what they are, how games are designed, and how you enjoy these games.
Some people struggle with recognizing the elements in the games they play. Relating them to something familiar is elementary, but it’s going to allow you to think about game mechanics and elements of game design independent of games you’ve already played.
If people who have only played World of Warcraft can recognize what makes World of Warcraft the game it is, then perhaps they can better understand why they like it so much. The process might also serve as a means of identifying what the game lacks and what someone might want in their future game or their ‘ideal’ game.
First off I’d like to say that this is a huge topic with tons of branches. I applaud you for not going on a tangent Keen, lol.
I agree with the things you wrote. The next step is to figure out how games sell us on the same thing over and over (is the pattern really -that- addicting and fun?). What is it about kiddy pools and lakes that appeal to us? What about people (such as yourself) who like both?
The thing is imo it’s much easier to create a kiddy pool type game. It takes time and by no means is it a poor game, but the standard isn’t set all that high (WoW is often a standard for these types of games. Most other MMOs on the market right now are VERY similar to WoW). The standard for lake games is much higher because it has to allow the player enough freedom (as opposed to being told what to do) to not get bored while also not completely overwhelming them.
PvE and PvP can be in either kiddy pools or lakes. One isn’t more superior to the other when talking about PvE and PvP. Some players will have preferences and that is expected so some games are marketed to players of a certain type.
I’d like to see a game where PvE and PvP are brought together into one. I’m not exactly sure how it’d be done yet, but I imagine it’d be along the lines of a full out PvP game where there are 0 harmful npc’s. Questing would be entirely driven by exploration and PvP. After all players are part of the environment they are playing in, especially if it’s an open world PvP game.
I’ve got a lot of thoughts on this subject, but I myself have slipped into merely rambling on about this or that so I’ll cut myself short and give you a thumbs up Keen.
“The lake probably took hundreds or thousands of years to get where it’s at. The kiddy likely took mere minutes.”
You’re disregarding the hundreds of thousands of years of evolution which took place in order to allow human beings to create a kiddy pool. This is a massive failing in your argument. You can’t take the connotations dirived from two concepts and use them to prove abstract arguments.
“World of Warcraft comes to mind as the perfect example of the kiddy pool. It has that stylized fun in a controled environment where the entertainment is spoonfed to the player carefuly. It’s designed to ensure players are always having fun with the ability to get in and get out quickly. Players can introduce elements to the game (like the ball or the dog) that will increase the fun and no one will be bothered by it.
…
When I think about what games would match the lake, I think about games like SWG, UO, VG, or EQ1. I think about a more open space with the potential for the player to enjoy what the world allows them to do, but it’s a much harsher place with the potential for anything to happen. ”
Uh… no. SWG, UO, VG, EQ1… they still offer the same confines that WoW offers. They are all games which take place in a constructed world, controlled by developers. The sense of freedom you have precieved is only imaginary based upon the emotions you felt when playing the games. You are always limited due to the confines of the nature of the medium.
Adding PvP is just another example of an emotional concept. It may alter you interactions but it won’t change them drastically. Remember, even in a PvE game, you still have social interactions on an almost continual basis. It doesn’t make the game any more ‘free’, it’s just simple another form of gameplay.
Simply put, I don’t believe you can use abstract terms or concepts to quantify game mechanics. It’s why I hate things like the term ‘sandbox’ – it means nothing. We may as well call WoW a hotdog and EQ a hamburger and apply some abstract principles to both.
P.S. Sorry if I sound harsh, just getting caught up in the article. Great post, Keen 🙂
@Sto: Your understanding of the subject is perfect Sto. It gives me hope that I didn’t entirely fail at what I was shooting for here.
I really, really like where you’re going with figuring out how games sell us on the idea of playing them, and how they do so to such a degree that we continue to play them nearly every day. And then to take it a step further, how it is we seem to look for the same traits in our next game that we found in past games.
If we are to consider WoW the kiddy pool design, and assume that people see the kiddy pool design as we do, then it would appear that most people prefer a straight forward game with linear progression, consistent and clear goals, and easy to figure out, etc etc etc.
Now if we REALLY want to get deep here… what if we bring the kiddy pool to the lake? There’s a thinker.
@WeFlySpitFires: You’re on the right track. Don’t focus so much on the failures of the comparison that I’m drawing and just try to run with it. It’s not meant to be a catchall or anything definitive. It’s meant to be malleable and subjective.
I liked where you said: “They are all games which take place in a constructed world, controlled by developers. The sense of freedom you have precieved is only imaginary based upon the emotions you felt when playing the games.”
That’s where you began to see what I was trying to do. Don’t get caught up on how -Keen- feels about the games, because you have absolutely no ground to stand on by saying that my feeling SWG is the lake, rather than the kiddy pool, is wrong. You’ve mentioned emotions, which can been interpreted several ways for different people, but try to write down in words how your emotions make you feel about the Lake vs. the Kiddy pool.
Try not to get caught up in the circular argument of disproving someone else’s thoughts because you disagree with them, but rather finding out WHY you disagree with them and then play along.
@Sto: “The thing is imo it’s much easier to create a kiddy pool type game. It takes time and by no means is it a poor game, but the standard isn’t set all that high (WoW is often a standard for these types of games. Most other MMOs on the market right now are VERY similar to WoW). The standard for lake games is much higher because it has to allow the player enough freedom (as opposed to being told what to do) to not get bored while also not completely overwhelming them.”
All you’ve done is relate the connotation of a ‘kiddy pool’ with WoW because that’s what you’ve subconsciously absorbed over the years.
How is a ‘kiddy pool’ easier to create? Can you actually give an example of a ‘lake’ game? What is basis for your argument?
Perhaps “easier to create” could be changed to “less complex”. Relatively speaking, WoW is far less complex than (for example) EVE. Now figuring out why it’s less complex brings us back to understanding how we perceive elements of gameplay.
@Sto: “I’d like to see a game where PvE and PvP are brought together into one. I’m not exactly sure how it’d be done yet, but I imagine it’d be along the lines of a full out PvP game where there are 0 harmful npc’s. Questing would be entirely driven by exploration and PvP. After all players are part of the environment they are playing in, especially if it’s an open world PvP game.”
Very interesting point. But what we’re getting into now is the concept of granting ‘true’ freedom, a principle which we can only experience in the human world. Kinda ironic how we’re attempting to achieve what we already have 🙂 Maybe that’s the thing we’re actually seeking – a place in society and a point to our existence.
What if we added another abstract concept to the Kiddy Pool vs Lake scenario. What if it became Kiddy Pool vs Lake vs Ocean. Now that’s exciting.
Again, lovely topic, Keen! Enjoying the flow of thoughts! 🙂
@Keen: “Try not to get caught up in the circular argument of disproving someone else’s thoughts because you disagree with them, but rather finding out WHY you disagree with them and then play along.”
Very good point! I get too caught up sometimes 🙂
“You’ve mentioned emotions, which can been interpreted several ways for different people, but try to write down in words how your emotions make you feel about the Lake vs. the Kiddy pool.”
Indeed, I think emotionality is deeply linked to your scenarios. In a real world sense, it’s not so much about trying to create freedom in MMOs but about triggering the emotions one feels when playing them.
That’s a very interesting avenue to explore. Do you think slight shifts in basic mechanics can have such a profound impact on our online experience?
Would have been a much stronger analogy (we all know what the lake and the kiddy pool are analogous to so no need to try and BS) if you had used water park instead of kiddy pool.
Using “kiddy pool” starts the post with a demeaning, narrow view of one style and an inflated, idealized view of the other.
Oh wait, I was supposed to accept your premise and look past the blatant attempt to analogize certain games. Sry.
PS watch out for sunburn and parasites at the lake. 🙂
You guys are gonna make my head explode. I blame my education in science and my lack of interest in the arts. Very deep thoughts here. I enjoy your arguments about the matter.
Wow, I mean wow.
I like video games and computer games, which i suppose makes me a bit of a nerd at times, or at least it used to, when people still used that term.
But…..Keen……
……….you just earned yourself a super nerd of the year award.
Contemplate the meaning of real life instead of the meaning of life in a MMORPG.
@ WeFlySpitFires: I believe slight shifts in basic game mechanics can, without a doubt, have a profound impact on our online experience. The proof in my eyes is the past 4-5 years. Looking at the majority of mmorpgs, you really can’t deny the fact that they are very, very similar to WoW.
Then why don’t they see success anywhere near that of WoW? It’s because of the slight shifts in basic game mechanics, or maybe the lack thereof in some cases.
There are more specific examples such as class mechanics in a game like Warhammer Online. A class might receive one tiny change and suddenly it’s the flavor of the month because of how its perceived as “the best”. Or, it might receive a balance that brings it in-line with all the other classes yet players feel less inclined to play that class now because it’s not as strong as it was – even if it’s on par with others now.
@Gerd: Why participate in the discussion if you find yourself incapable of seeing past a comparison being drawn between a kiddy pool and a lake, and one type of game with another? Was it because you were looking to be offended or did you automatically assume that the kiddy pool had a negative connotation? To me it sounds like you have a predisposition.
Without knowing it though you’ve brought up a decent point of discussion. If I believe that a game like WoW is the kiddy pool, and you’ve automatically assumed the kiddy pool is bad, then why do 11.5 million people play something bad? Why would I say that WoW has some of the best gameplay of any mmorpg ever made if I felt it was “bad”? I’ve already said that I often times prefer the kiddy pool way of gaming. (if you’re familiar with my blog you know that I actually like WoW until the very, very end.) It goes back to what Sto was saying about figuring out why it is we play these games.
You’re welcome to join the discussion if you feel you abandon the predispositions.
@Brandedx: I think Legos are most closely associated with the meaning of life. Or was it the race track…
To sort of help this move in a direction, I want to restate a question I made in comment #11.
What if we bring the kiddy pool to the lake?
I think therein lies the beginning of a truly great game.
Bringing the kiddy pool to the lake reminds of the Schrödinger’s cat analogy – a person could never exist inside a kiddy pool and a lake at the same time, they have to choose which they want (if you tried to put a kiddy pool inside a lake it would cease to be a kiddy pool because it loses all of the parameters which define it).
It simply may not be possible to create a scenario which has all of the attributes of both because they tend to contradict each other.
Ultimately we have the same thing we started with – a choice. Today, do you go with the kiddy pool or travel to the lake? You might take the kiddy pool to the lake, but it’s going to have sit on the side.
That’s probably one of the more insightful things I’ve seen in a long time WeFlySpitFires. Well said. Perhaps that’s why it’s never been done, and every time a game tries it fails to some degree.
This is a great blog entry Keen. I really like that you brought something like this up. Just now I had typed up a very long post, but decided to edit it to make it shorter (because really it’s folly to try to explain -anything-…it just takes too much time). It’s like when a kid says, “and then what” to everything you say. The process never ends. I think this is because we as humans cannot imagine/comprehend infinity. Hell we can’t prove it exists nor can we truly define it. It’s just there to explain things we can’t explain.
Perhaps infinity is unthought ideas. Things that exist, but we have no knowledge of. I really don’t know and could go on a tangent here, but I’ll try not to.
I’ll think your question over tonight Keen and post a response tomorrow with whatever it is I’ve come up with. Until then I’ll just say you’ve opened a very large book my friend. Strange thing is the book simply does not come to an end.
Kiddy Pool = scale of WoW’s PvP
Lake = scale of possibilities in Darkfall’s PvP
Race Track = WoW’s raiding treadmill, race to gear up.
Legos = the end-game is what we make it; no limitations (Darkfall).
And that’s what I think about that.
“I’m not saying one is better than the other.”
You may not consciously be wanting to do this, but your descriptions and analogies definitely do say that one is better than the other.
(As someone else suggested, a water park would have been a better example than a kiddy pool. I’m not sure about how the racetrack would be done differently.)
They’re supposed to be descriptive imagery of the way a game was designed, not representative of an end product as some people are insinuating. If you look at it that way, then sure it sounds bad. However, I’m looking at it more the following way; a way that could not have been done any justice by a water park or even a bigger pool:
Pool
– User friendly
– Simple, lacking complexity or ‘depth’.
– Just plain fun for people of all ages (Yes, even adults can enjoy the kiddy pools if they know how).
– Doesn’t require enormous commitment, travel, time, extras
Lake
– Requires training to swim, use a boat, fish, or other things you would do at a lake.
– Commitment required to go to the lake, or to use a lake, is far greater than a pool.
– The ‘in control’ factor isn’t there.
– You can do more with a lake and its surrounding area.
– There’s nothing quick about a lake (this ties in a bit with commitment)
Maybe it’s more clear that way. I went with the kiddy pool and the lake because it offered me the opportunity to relate depth, location, scope, fun factor, and other things into the equation. Depending on what you want in a mmorpg, the kiddy pool could be more ideal than the lake. Mix in the race track vs. lego comparison and you can pull additional elements into the mix. As long as you’re able to take a step back and say “you know what, i like the kiddy pool more” without havine a predisposition that the kiddy pool is a “bad thing”, then it’s not an issue.
I do understand the possibility for misunderstanding, and I apologize for any misconceptions, but I hope people can understand that I’m asking you to look past it and focus on the basic elements from a creative standpoint.
I don’t really like swimming.
The analogy isn’t helping, because everyone will always bend it in a way that his least favorite game ends up being the kiddy pool. For example WoW is obviously much larger than Darkfall, thus WoW is the lake, Darkfall the kiddy pool.
WoW combat has far more different spells and combat mechanics, while Darkfall’s combat is very linear, thus WoW is the Lego, and Darkfall is the racetrack.
What if the race track is modified into a lego “Roller coaster”?
I think the only real way to mix kiddie pools and lakes is to slowly introduce kiddie pools into lakes. The reason being is that lakes are essentially comprised of several kiddie pools. The key is making each kiddie pool within the lakes look and feel appealing. Eventually folks will realize that a well done lake can offer more than a kiddie pool can simply by definition. This is a more of a good thing is a good thing approach and only holds true if the pools within the lake are all done well and feel different.
Most game companies don’t have the time and resources (usually they have 1 or the other) to make a proper lake, so they either create a very well done kiddie pool (which is still very entertaining) or create a cheap knock-off lake (lets call these ponds…because like ponds, knock offs can be fun for various reasons too). What it comes down to is not which is better, but which has more invested in it. Overall kiddie pools are often more polished than lakes, but lakes have more to offer. If you brought the level of polish that kiddie pool games have to a lake then you’d really have something (real lakes obviously have more polish than real, man made kiddie pools…but creating a “real lake” in the gaming world takes a vast amount of time and resources).
I think it can be done, but it would require the companies involved to have the stones to try a different approach.
Listen, if i want to go fishing, i have to go around the entire damn lake looking for good spots. And I may waste an entire day looking for a a good place to fish.
Now if there were fish in a swimming pool…that would make it much easier for me to find what I was looking for.
Great read!
@ Tobold
Obviously you didn’t comprehend the the post, but instead decided to take offense to the kiddie pool reference. Just change the kiddie pool to a water park, if you will, and actually participate in the discussed subject matter.
This is not a WoW vs. Darkfall post. It is a discussion about sandbox and theme park mechanics.
“Listen, if i want to go fishing, i have to go around the entire damn lake looking for good spots. And I may waste an entire day looking for a a good place to fish.
Now if there were fish in a swimming pool…that would make it much easier for me to find what I was looking for.+ -brandedx
My favorite reply so far. 🙂
While a small kiddy pool may not have fish, we all know what he’s talking about. It comes back to the lake’s scope vs. the pool’s scope. The pool is all about the focused experience, whereas the lake might require the person to jump through extra hoops.
Now, where the fishing thought makes sense is if you really think about it in a literal sense. A pool may not offer fishing and a lake might. But the cost of adding fish to the kiddy pool would be too high – it would sour the experience (and totally be gross, imo). Leaving the fishing experience at the lake might be the best bet, but you have to realize it’s going to require a little effort and perhaps even the mindset that this is what it will take to fish, if you really want to fish.
We can liken fishing to a niche mechanic. Maybe liken fishing to open-pvp or a massive world or a player driven economy. Or, we can liken fishing to a regular activity found in both games (bending the example to believe that fishing could happen in a pool) and consider how much easier it would be to fish in a kiddy pool than a lake. In a way, one could say it would be like shooting fish in a barrel vs. a grind.
Fantastic idea, btw. It’s sparked multiple ways to think about and look at niche mechanics or effort vs. reward or even scope.
When I first looked at the pictures I immediately was pulled to the lake, and thought of what there was around and inside the lake the kill. I thought of vastness and oppportunity with plenty to do. Not quite sure where the PvP/PvE thing came to play but you lost me when all of that came into the conversation.
When I saw the kiddy pool I immediately thought of the many games I’ve splashed into, then left after quickly getting bored; limited and shallow.
If someone comes to the lake and is bugging me, there’s plenty of lake for me to change my surroundings. With the pool, I have nowhere to go.
I thought more of WoW when I saw the lake: huge, lots to do on top of lake, around lake, or even in the air over the lake. The kiddy pool just reminded me of the many other MMOs I’ve tried and left after being disappointed.
Mostly a solo player I lean more towards PvE which I can jump into and out of at my leisure. However I do enjoy good PvP and WAR really had me hooked for a bit. Darkfall looks promising and I will probably try it out. The BIGGEST problem I see with all PvP which I’ve encountered too many times is how unbalanced it becomes very quickly. Darkfall looks to follow the same path. If I come into the game a month after release, I don’t stand a chance against those whose ‘skill’ has been building up for that month. WAR became this: I left for awhile and when I came back to give it another shot, the gap between me and those who had continued playing was just too large for me to even have a chance.
I’m still hoping for a game that becomes larger than the lake, like an ocean: complete with tides, waves, currents.
Well done, Salbos! I was hoping someone thought of it that way which is, again, why I used the kiddy pool because of it being one extreme to the other and capable of being seen from many different directions.
The mention of PvP, where people show up to the lake, was more about interacting with a community that could directly impact your gameplay than it was actually fighitng people.
If you think about it, in a game like WoW or LOTRO it’s really hard for someone to directly impact your gameplay. In a game like EVE or PotBS though, someone could easily have a big impact on how you’re able to play the game.
Here are my 2 cents:
The kiddie pool for me is WoW Endgame. It is very limited in what I can do (raid or Arena, Wintergrasp is a joke). I can’t leave the kiddie pool.
The lake is WAR Endgame: I can do many and varied things, and above all, chaotic and random things (versus the repetitive grind of PvE, RvR will always be more chaotic, and personally I hate repetitive things). I am free to swim all over the lake, at my own risk.
The race track is WAR leveling. You go straight on a pre-fixed line and mostly alone. While you can jump from leveling Tier to leveling Tier, it completely breaks the flow of the story your character is supposed to be taking part of.
The LEGOs is WoW leveling: You can (mostly, except for Outlands) level where you want, in any way you desire. You build your own leveling path on your own.
Keen – more importantly, have you started the DF download?? If so, I was wondering how that was going. I see from the forums people are bitching and screaming about sloooow Dl’s. Did you DL that seed from:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?p=2789415#post2789415
No exp with this so wanted to get a heads up before I launch it. Of course this is assuming that AV wants my credit card info tomorrow….
“If you think about it, in a game like WoW or LOTRO it’s really hard for someone to directly impact your gameplay.”
In LotrO, that’s true, but it’s a theme park game. They never tried to be anything else. WoW, however, has open PvP servers, like the one I play on.
“In a game like EVE or PotBS though, someone could easily have a big impact on how you’re able to play the game.”
Have you actually ever even played Eve Online? Like many people, you hear of the intriguing things that happen in EO, like the assassination and the betrayal that led to the downfall of BoB and you come to believe the game is fully like that. Seriously, it’s not. When you first the start the game, all you really do is fly around, mine, try to find a corporation, and hope you don’t get scammed. Sure there is some PvP, but it’s nothing special. To be honest, the only time you’ll ever be involved in those stories you read about is you spend a lot of time in game, find the right corp and work your way up.
I applaud your recents posts, as you’ve started to look at game design. You’ve reached the point where you understand why you play these games, and you’re going to quickly discover that no game, not even DFO, will fully satisfy you.
Keen I think I understand what you are trying to do here but the implementation was a little flawed. I think you in the post set the expectations especially when you went into what you thought each game signified. There is obvious bias here that taints the reader’s interpretations before we even begin. A better comparison would have been devoid of any personal observation and allow the reader to make the decision for themselves.
The usage of lake and kiddy pool, kiddy pool has a patronizing connotation; and that is without any real link to any real world analogy. Why even use kiddy pool, why not just say pool? You can do all the same things you can do in a pool that you can do in a “kiddy poolâ€. Again the images by human nature are going to be different and biased. By saying kiddy pool I am not looking to be offended I am automatically looking at something of less sophistication, immature, and something I used to entertain the children. In short you paint it to be a diversion.
Meanwhile a lake has a more mature connotation; more diverse locale that has less controls then a pool/kiddy pool. It is something that adults can easily enjoy. The imagery of the lake is much more powerful then the kiddy pool and is why you attribute qualities to the lake that you believe make a strong game, games you like. Again bias is introduced. But even so your description of a lake falls short. I see hat you are trying to do, but you set the stage with the initial bias and imagery.
I made a response to the Racetrack and Lego issue:
http://www.vanifae.com/?p=335#more-335
In short I think a melding of both would be the best course of action. I think this may have been the original idea you were going for that a merging of the two styles is perhaps the strongest. I think most games currently meld the two styles but not in equal measure or perhaps present the concepts in a competent manner.
I think discussing how each was made is sort of moronic.
Some days I want to get drunk and sit in a kiddy pool in my back yard, some days I want to goto the Lake and go boating and Water Skiing with my friends.
I enjoy both, but the Kiddy Pool is more convient and requires less effort on my part to get enjoyment out of. The down side is I can’t spend 8 hours in a kiddy pool, I can spend 8 hours at the lake.
WoW is my Kiddy pool… EQ WAS my Lake. I just don’t have time to goto the Lake anymore.
poor Keen. I liked the analogy!
After some thought, I think you’d be able to remove the bias from the comparisons if it was:
Pool vs. Lake
RC Car vs Legos
Agree, the kiddy pool example is a little demeaning (at least in the context of games, which is what we’re talking about) But…if you get rid of it, you lose the “imagination” elements. I was thinking something like a hottub with kiddy pool items in it, because the games have the same appeal as a hottub..relaxing, fun, social aspects etc..you feel good when you’re done.
Anyways, my 2c
Great entry
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