They’re not MMORPG’s anymore!

This post wraps up what I have been getting at with my past few entries.   It’s more of a comment than anything thought provoking and should help you understand my train of thought in the present/future.

Few of these games releasing today are MMORPG’s.  They are MMO’s.  None of us have truly been sure about how to classify them, what to call them, or if giving them a label is even appropriate anymore.  I’ve been using whichever term comes to mind first but I won’t be doing that anymore.  I’m making the official switch away from calling the ‘WoW model’ games MMORPG’s and classifying them simply as MMOs — Officially.

Why?  Mostly it has to do with what I’ve been writing about the past few days.  RPGs have an expansive scope of design with emphasis on world and character development.  The journey is the game and the destination is a state of mind rather than a gateway.  MMO’s are about finite game design focused on concentrated acts to make the largest number of people happiest.   There is no role to play; there is no journey to take.  Immersion is an ideology now instead of realized part of design.   The spirit of the RPG has been driven away.  They’re becoming just games now instead of, well… in a way this sounds lame, but they were definitely alternate realities that we were able to exist in.

Before you take me out and string me up, I have not said anything bad about the WoW’s, LotRO’s, Aion’s, etc. of the world.  I’ve simply stated how I see them as different.

The return of the RPG values is imminent.  I believe that very strongly.  I feel that we’ll see the return of the MMORPG soon because I’ve already started to detect an ebbing of this MMO tide.  I believe strongly that it will come as quickly as it left, which means it could take a few years.   I have a really big feeling that it won’t be a niche company that makes this change either.  We’ll just have to see!

  • I have been enjoying all your recent entry posts on the MMO state and once again I totally agree with you.

    And I foresee two companies which might turn the tides in a not so distant future.

  • You know, it kinda cracks me up when anyone tries to officially declare that one thing is now another thing. Maybe you don’t like the role provided for the player in the current crop of MMORPGs, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is at the same point. Personally, I approach these games by looking to immerse myself into the role, not waiting for the game to do that for me. I want to play the hero (or villain, if that’s the side I’m on) in the story that the designers have laid out in front of me. Sure, maybe the story isn’t very good. Or maybe it’s the exact same for everyone, no matter what type of character you play (**cough, cough, Guild Wars, cough**), but that doesn’t mean that I’m automatically barred from enjoying the role I’ve been given. Doesn’t mean I have to like it either; I’m welcome to go play something else if I want. The point is, just because this game or that game doesn’t do role-playing the way you want doesn’t mean that everyone should now bow to your wisdom. There are a few million who may not agree with you.

  • “MMORPG’s” are not “MMORPGs”. “MMO’s” are not “MMOs”. The former in each pair is possessive and the latter is plural. 😛

    “There is no role to play; there is no journey to take.”

    Huh? Clearly there is a role to play. You are playing as a distinct persistent character in an online world of sorts. Your character has a distinct set of abilities that qualify his interaction with the world and with other players. Playing as this character is assuming his role in the world. So yes, you are playing a role when you log on to your Assassin in Aion.

    There is also a huge journey. You go through 20+ zones of content! You do hundreds of quests! If that’s not a journey for both you as a player and your PC, I’d like to hear what you think a journey should be. Your character travels thousands of miles over the course of his life and talks with hundreds of unique NPCs. Certainly he has journeyed and so, by extension, have you.

    So based on the fact that you have not actually drawn a distinction between MMORPGs and Aion/WoW/WAR/DFO, we can safely not change the entire vocabulary for an entire community of 20+ million people.

  • Maladorn: “I want to play the hero (or villain, if that’s the side I’m on) in the story that the designers have laid out in front of me”

    I think thats the difference here, a lot of us want to play the hero or villain in the story WE MAKE FOR OURSELVES.

    Just wanted to respond to that particular sentence, to me the essence of roleplaying is choice, not the illusion of choice. If the ending is already determined before I started, there isn’t any real choice, and the problem doesn’t go away if there are like 2, 3 or 4 endings, thats just delaying the matter.

    @ Keen: I pretty much agree. RPG is nowadays just short for “has character advancement.” I’m not sure precisely where that started, but its definitely the prominent definition at this point. Now if you actually want to “RP” in an “RPG” you get labeled as some sort of fringe player who must be 40 years old and living in their parents basement, may also have played AD&D in said basement 25 years ago.

    I’m not even talking about the kind of RP that you seen on lots of MMOs now either, where its effectively just using the game as a glorified IRC channel since you can’t really change the game world to Role Play in any meaningful way outside of the game mechanics. Even if you hint at being in character at all, like why would my character do this quest, or wear “vanity” items in town you get ostracized.

    I don’t really know what to term this genre. Collectors, or something maybe, where the real goal is just to collect things, whether it be experience points, reputation points, Gold, items, whatever. I think that those games have a fine place in the gaming world really. I mean, what was Diablo 1/2 if not that, and they are 2 of my favorite games ever. When put into the MMO medium though, I don’t like it quite as much though, because then you have this illusion of a world that is effectively just for show.

  • There’s a distinction between the mechanics of RPGs and the “fluff” of RPGs. MMORPGs these days have the mechanics of RPGs but little of the fluff. Keen doesn’t like that, clearly, and wishes we’d stop calling games “RPGs” that are actually more mechanically RPGs than traditional CRPGs like Final Fantasy 7.

    We don’t define genres based on the fluff because the fluff can easily be changed to match a different genre while the mechanics are exactly the same.

    MMORPG and RPG are distinct genres. The claim isn’t made that MMORPGs are a subset of RPGs. MMORPGs have evolved from RPGs into something completely separate.

    There’s also more to RPG mechanics than character advancement.

    I think the discussion of the definition of RPG is a topic deserving a lot of discussion. It’s really nowhere near as clear-cut as Keen seems to think it is.

  • I’m not speaking about RPG’s. I’m speaking about RPG elements that justify having the “RPG” in “MMORPG”. The RPG part of MMORPG’s – whether you call it fluff or pizza – is almost gone entirely. That’s what I’m saying and that’s why I will personally be drawing the distinction between “MMO’s” and “MMORPG’s”.

  • Hehe so technically speaking, by your logic Guild Wars is now more of a MMORPG than WoW, WAR etc ?
    Since it focuses a LOT on the journey in it’s mission based storytelling design.
    But I guess where GW falls mostly is the MMO part not the RPG part due to it’s heavy instancing and solo friendliness.

    But I have given this one some thought lately. I had a blast leveling my first character to 20 in GW, I read the quest descriptions I watched every movie cutscene, I really enjoyed the storyarch. In later games (WoW, AoC, WAR and now Aion) my main focus has indeed been reaching levelcap, not enjoying the storyline and the journey there. Sad but true.

  • The trick is going to be trying to foster MMO immersion via the RPG aspect without resorting to the old trick of “adversity builds character.” You want people to enjoy the journey and feel the sense of a living world, but you also don’t want them to spend 45 minutes getting to camp, or to feel aimless or even worse, oppressed.

    It’s going to be tough.

  • Keen, I think you’re being a bit harsh.

    If I start up a level 1 orc in Wow, then the exploration of the world, gathering of gear, meeting other people for dungeons IS role-playing. But not the sort you are talking about.

    Let me put this forward this distinction:

    – single player role-playing = where you are on a journey to develop your character

    – world role-playing = you are a participant in a dynamic evolving fantasy world

    I have a gut feel that programming/networks/player-participation/etc actually imposes a limit on designing world role-playing. This is maybe why single player role-playing MMOs are so numerous.

  • I’d love to see the RPG element return and it’s something I’ve been complaining about for a long time 🙂 I don’t know what it is but for some reason developers just seem to forget that we’re meant to be playing a “role” not an arcade game. I get very frustrated when I don’t even get a biography box to write in some interesting back story about my character!

  • “I’m making the official switch away from calling the ‘WoW model’ games MMORPG’s and classifying them simply as MMOs — Officially.”

    Well bleep, now that Keen has said it, it’s officially official. Sorry guys, better start changing your URL’s and blog titles. 😛

  • I’ll just chime in briefly about what you say about the tide changing: The fact that we can name new games or games in development that are trying to create sandbox worlds does suggest this. We have Darkfall, Fallen Earth, and Dawntide. …There is another one too, the name is escaping me.

    Atm, I am playing Aion for the world/graphics and the pleasures of grinding. I am beta testing Dawntide to be a part of the open, player-driven, RPG game that I want.

  • “I’m not speaking about RPG’s. I’m speaking about RPG elements that justify having the “RPG” in “MMORPG”. The RPG part of MMORPG’s – whether you call it fluff or pizza – is almost gone entirely. That’s what I’m saying and that’s why I will personally be drawing the distinction between “MMO’s” and “MMORPG’s”.”

    And MMORPGs have plenty of RPG elements. Many more than just about any other genre. So I think it’s perfectly advisable to continue calling the genre “MMORPG.”

    And you still haven’t made an argument for the distinction between whatever you call an MMO vs. an MMORPG. Tell us some rules that will allow us to see clearly the difference.

  • I simply disagree. I’ve made quite a bit of an argument over the past week for why I feel they’re no longer RPG’s. That doesn’t mean they’re bad games, they’re just no RPG’s anymore.

    Now it’s your turn to tell me why they ARE still RPG’s. I don’t think you can make an argument convincing enough. If you’ve been around long enough to have ever played the original MMORPG’s that were — shocker — more RPG than collection/achievement then I’d love to hear how you can say that Aion or WoW are just as RPG (or RPG at all) as UO, EQ, The Realm, etc.

    @Green Armadillo: Cute, but you need to reread it. The part where I limit this to ME is especially interesting. Bleepin bleep to the bleep, yo. Word.

  • I’m not claiming that MMORPGs are RPGs. I said before that MMORPG is a separate genre from RPG and is not a proper subset. You are claiming that there is some different between MMORPGs and MMOs. There is. That difference is evident between games like WoW, WAR, EQ and games like Second Life, Habbo Hotel, Mafiawars, etc.. You’re just diluting the current meaning of MMO by arbitrarily forcing MMORPGs into that grouping.

    You are challenging the status quo. It’s your responsibility to provide an argument. Just summarize your argument briefly–pull your last few posts’ content together into a quick paragraph that supports your claim that there is some bifurcation between MMORPGs and this other odd genre you’ve invented (or, actually, you’re just imagining) that you’re calling “MMOs”. I read all those posts and don’t see your point. You mention a few differences in the way that MMORPGs today are designed and how players approach them. All genres evolve. Is Counterstrike not an FPS because it doesn’t have all the elements of Doom?

  • @Evizaer: Paragraph 1: We’re in agreement. Paragraph 2: I don’t want to repost what I already posted. I clearly stated that games are being made for too many people now, trying to make them completely happy while in the process oversimplifying and dumbing down content, making people sprint in the moment, live in the moment, and overall become finite in scope instead of expansive.

    MMO’s are becoming action oriented instead of RPG oriented, which is why I am no longer wanting to call all of these MMO’s “MMORPG’s”. I may start calling some of them “Massively Multiplayer Action Games”.

    If you don’t see my point now then it’s because you disagree on a fundamental level. That’s totally fine. Just say that you disagree.

  • Monopoly is an RPG if you choose to make it so. The role-playing comes from the player, not the game.

    As for commerciality, the less games companies mention the “RPG” part, the wider their potential audience becomes.

    I’d say the idea that “the return of the RPG values is imminent” is no more than wishful thinking. Got any supportive evidence for that thesis?

  • All MMORPGs are MMOs. Saying that we should call MMORPGs “MMOs” is like saying we should call house-cats “felines”. You’re suggesting a less informative generality over a more descriptive specific classification. The language already exists to describe MMORPGs, there’s no significant distinction that makes that term ineffective at its task, so there’s no need to change it.

    Actually, this discussion is not going to yield anything useful because we’re debating changing something we have no control over. And even if it did change, there’d be no qualitative effect on the industry or players.

    The genre of a game should be an afterthought. Games should be designed to be fun–designing a game to fit into a genre is going about achieving fun in an indirect way. Genre designation should be a tool to help players understand what a game’ll be like before they make a purchasing decision. Genre shouldn’t be a deciding factor in what goes into a game and what’s forbidden. If design is determined by genre primarily, the design will suffer. The greatest games are almost always genre-benders.

    “MMO’s are becoming action oriented instead of RPG oriented, which is why I am no longer wanting to call all of these MMO’s “MMORPG’s”. I may start calling some of them “Massively Multiplayer Action Games”.”

    Haven’t you heard of the genre “Action RPG”? No one is complaining that Action RPGs are not RPGs and we have to invent new terminology for that genre. I don’t see why we should have to invent new terminology for a genre that we have a relatively accurate label for, the MMORPG.

  • @Bhagpuss

    Just because you can “roleplay” while you play Monopoly does not make it an “RPG.” You can’t make a game something it’s not, unless you actually change the rules. You can do that in Monopoly because you can make your own “house rules.”

    You can’t fundamentally change the design of an MMO simply by playing it a different way. The point I think is to talk about how games are designed and how that facilitates or is conducive (or not) to roleplaying. Not about what the player can do satisfy his or her RPG inclinations in spite of a game that does not facilitate them and by doing something other than what the game was designed for.

  • What is the RPG in MMO-RPG actually?

    To some it is roleplaying a certain character, and staying “in character” to the world and char they personify.
    To others, RPG is merely the progression of certain stats, equipment and char abilities.

    I think you are right, terms like “world”, “immersion” and maybe even “story” make a comeback, we are probably already saturated with online “games”.

  • I’ve been calling them MMOGs for a while now. I tried to drop MMORPG a long time ago because in essence because almost ALL modern games have you “play a role”. RPG is IMPOSSIBLE to define in today’s market.

  • Evizaer: “No one is complaining that Action RPGs are not RPGs and we have to invent new terminology for that genre. I don’t see why we should have to invent new terminology for a genre that we have a relatively accurate label for, the MMORPG.”

    That is because the Action RPG exists for the action. The entire POINT of the MMORPG genre (initially at least), was the idea that you could have a vibrant living world to play in. The genre is so far from that idea now that it really is barely recognizable.

  • I just finished recording a podcast interview/discussion with Julie and Fran of the No Prisoners No Mercy podcast and they helped me define what I’m trying to say.

    The RPG in MMORPG to me means the difference between a virtual world and a game world. MMORPG’s (like UO and EQ) had more of a virtual world feel than a game world feel.

  • I’ll say it once and say it time and time again. The main fault these games today have is giving the player too many means of separating themselves from the rest of the world. Instances, zone clones, battlegrounds, arenas, you name it, it hurts the game more than it adds to the game. I’ll be the first to admit WOW is public enemy number 1 and all the little gangster mmo’s followed in their footsteps. Until the model changes back to a fully connected world the pattern will continue. Gotta give props to Fallen Earth, Darkfall and the few other indie games out that understand this, hopefully one of these can actually be good enough to make a difference.

  • @ Mahlah and Keen:

    Genres evolve. The meanings of words drift over time, and for good reason. The point of having subgenres such as open-world and directed play beneath the MMORPG umbrella accounts for the difference in emphasis between MMORPGs.

  • LOTRO isn’t WOW. It’s more like the traditional MMORPG in the dichotomy you’re constructing.

  • MMO is good enough for me since I’m just wanting to classify the “majority” of the games with a tag. I used to call them all MMORPG’s and now I’ll be referring to the industry as a whole as “MMO’s”.

  • Besides, i thought game publishers used the RPG suffix solely based on the fact that “there are levels”.

  • I have no idea why they use the RPG suffix. Basically that’s what I’m getting at here. Nothing about these games lately has been RPG, unless you consider getting gear and leveling up to be what defines “RPG” for MMORPG’s. I don’t.

  • I apologize for being a thread necromancer, but I’ve got one more thing to say. Keen, in comment 15 you say:
    “I simply disagree. I’ve made quite a bit of an argument over the past week for why I feel they’re no longer RPG’s… Now it’s your turn to tell me why they ARE still RPG’s.”

    Except your “arguments” boil down to saying that things were better in the good old days. You know what? In your “good old days” online gaming was a niche market of a niche market. There is a reason that there is an entire generation of gamers who have never played any of your “real MMORPGs”. I hear people’s war stories about EQ and UO and I know that those games wouldn’t appeal to me. Why should it be painfully slow/difficult to advance? Is that good? I hear people say that you “had a choice”, but the stories I hear revolve around killing mobs and doing quests. What’s changed? The fact that some games make it a little less painful, or make all options for character building useful? Or do you simply not like it that the newer games which don’t insult new players by having high knowledge barriers to entry get the accolades while your beloved but ugly older titles fall farther and farther behind. Maybe some folks haven’t played the older MMOs, but we have played RPGs. NWN, Diablo, KotOR, etc… all of which use killing mobs and doing quests as the method of advancement. And don’t tell me you have any more choice in those than you do in the MMO games. You could take the plot and mechanics of Guild Wars and make a single player RPG easy, for crying out loud, and nobody would say it wasn’t an RPG.

    Now, I don’t want to give the impression that modern MMOs are fine as they are. They just aren’t as bad as certain folks would like us to believe. And they are getting better. Things that those older titles couldn’t do because of sheer physical limitation are now possible, and I expect that each new game is going to continue to make strides. Phasing for example, while not perfect, is an attempt to make the world more interactive and variable by the player. Fallen Earth places huge emphasis on the players as the creators of gear and goods, instead of relying solely on drops and such. Even WAR had something to offer via PQs; again, not perfect, but an improvement.

    So, essentially, what I object to is the idea that just because you don’t like the games that are currently popular, these games are now no longer allowed in the MMORPG club. Does that mean that I can now declare Canadian bacon is no longer pork because the name doesn’t make sense? I mean, it’s not Canadian or bacon! After all, those new MMOs have easy starting zones and tutorials and plot arcs, so they don’t get to be RPGs anymore! Nevermind that you still allocate stats, pick abilities, level up on mobs and quests, use magic/mana/flying spaghetti monster sauce/force and manage hit points, choose allies, improve standing with various groups/factions, etc… ad nauseum. I know it sounds edgy and hardcore to declare the newer games “NOT RPGS!!!1!!!”, but you haven’t actually made the argument in a form that holds water.