DOTA 2 is brilliant

From what I’ve seen the spell effects are great but the overall look was very dull, as if the backgrounds were deliberately washed out to create greater contrast with the avatars which were otherwise not too impressive.

And on a small point I saw the following message on the screen:

“X got pwned by Y”.

If they are going to use horrendous internet slang in the messages themselves then I think they set a poor standard from the outset.

And yeah I could not believe they used the same map once again.

DoTA was a mod done by a small team (or just 1 person?) but this is a full game being designed by Valve so I expected a lot more progress.

Plus points: the lobby seems great.

I’m shocked to hear you say DotA 2 is brilliant (in its current state). There’s something seriously wrong with your taste if you really mean what you said…

So you think the pro players decide which is the most popular one? They are less than 1% of the playerbase. They are nobody. They dont draw any players away from anything. If you really think that, more players would be playing CS, than modern warefar or BF3

@G-Man only 1 person essentially attacked Keen’s opinion from a total of 4 comments prior to you, so not sure where you are getting your conclusion that “a lot of people here don’t like someone’s opinion”.

I don’t have any problems with Keen’s opinion which is grounded in a lot more experience of the game than mine, I just expressed my own opinion based on what I’ve seen and my own tastes.

I liked Keen’s post and will be giving the game another look if they give me a demo offer someday – but I quit HoN after one game for being ugly and using the word “pwned” and might do the same again with DoTA2!

Sorry Keen but after a similar amount of playing I feel the exact opposite. I never loved denying in DOTA, but after playing LoL then trying Dota 2 for a bit I actually found it immersion breaking and annoying killing my own minions.

Second off the hero design feels like a re-balance not a remake. You still have a lot of abilities that are on a long boring cool down or are completely passive. Compared to some of LoL’s characters they are actually dead easy and unintuitive to play with a low skill cap.

Look at Nocturne vs Specter, Nocturne has Shadow Reach which is basically identical to Specter’s Spectral Dagger, Where Specter has the passive Desolate, Nocturne has an active form of crowd control that requires skill to land (Unspeakable Horror), where Specter has another passive, Dispersion, Nocturne has a passive with a built in active that blocks one enemy spell and rewards a successful block.

Both have a fun and interesting Ultimate, Specter can Haunt every enemy Hero on the map with images of herself then teleport to the image of her choice, Nocturne blacks out the map for all enemy champions then can teleport to one of them causing damage.

Still Nocturne is a well fleshed out Hero while Specter is a two trick pony that gets old fast.

Frankly I think DOTA 2 is too stuck in the muddy waters of PRO CIRCUIT!!@ gaming to appeal to most people. LoL is like WCIII in that it dose a really good job of being accessible to both. The learning curve in LoL turns a lot of people off and DOTA has a learning cliff that makes Eve’s look good.

We are going to have to agree to disagree then Keen because frankly I’m going to keep playing LoL unless the Dota mechanics get a lot more user friendly or the heros get a lot more interesting.

I don’t have five hours a day to master fiddly mechanics and I certainly don’t have the patience to put up with the thousands of people who HAVEN’T sunk way more time than they should have into RTS and MOBA games like I have. It takes a decent RTS player maybe 100 hours to get “good” at LoL as compared to say 2 or three thousand to get “good” at Dota.

Furthermore never underestimate the power of the Dota community, if LoL has a rotten community Dota’s is rancid. A lot of newbies are going to make a mistake (or twenty) in the first three minuets and get the time honored: “Go back to LoL.”

Except this being the DOTA community it will probably be more like: “You stupid $@& swilling piece of %@#*, what the @#$% do you think your doing? Go back to LoL you mother!@#$ing !@$$ot, and tell your sister I’m going to #$%& her doggy style, you little !@#$.”

@Rawblin Agreed. I can understand why Keen likes DOTA 2, even if I don’t agree with it, what I don’t understand is why he thinks it is going to be successful and “take the crown for best MOBA game”.

All the highly successful competitive games that have been released in recent times have followed the Blizzard model of being accessible to the casual crowd and yet deep enough for the Pro’s. Dota 2 is about as accessible as an armadillo’s belly button and twice as hard to get into.

The good thing about DOTA2 is Valve. You just know they are never going to do anything haflway, its going to be quality all the way. Not saying LoL is bad, but its clear what they earn money on. And its not new maps, replay function or observer slots, its skins and heroes. Its not that big a problem, but I remember that the servers were very iffy for a long period (I live in EU, so dont know if its the same case in US). Chat not working, getting disconnected from games etc.

Still LoL just feels like the way forward, getting rid of stupid mecanics (denying creeps) and adding fun stuff like the bush! Making a copy, more or less, of the old Dota map from WC3 just feels uncreative and a like a step backwards to me. And they found a F2P model that actually works! Thats pretty rare, and then its a bit harder to blame ’em for the lack of observer slots and stuff like that.

I’m with C3PO et al here. Riot did a lot with League of Legends to present a user-friendly environment to play the game in. The map is bigger and the town portal/”blue pill” ability is built into every champion. Creep and tower denial are impossible. The shop is far, far easier to browse and understand in LoL…and there’s only one of them. All abilities have cooldowns, making for more steady, bursty game play that isn’t a constant spam-fest.

Here’s DOTA2 trying to bring that all back. Probably some hard core DOTA players out there who will welcome this change, but I’m honestly surprised that Valve went that way. Somethings LoL did were good ideas; DOTA2 should’ve maybe gone that same way.

Comment got cut off :/. Right now Valve have Polish, Marketing and Brand name recognition on their side. I think the content is slightly lacking and I know for a fact that the accessibility is COMPLETELY lacking, remember that 90% of the gamer population has played a lot less than you and isn’t going to wet themselves over hardcore old school mechanics the way you are.

Wow this is on the cusps of being a LoL vs DOTA fanboy argument.

I have not played DOTA, DOTA2, or HON. I played SC2 DOTA at the 2010 Blizzcon which was the first time I had ever played that type of game. I do however, or did, play LoL. It’s easy to get into and offers alot of room to grow and get better. A few friends, who convinced me to play LoL, have tried DOTA2 and said it’s terrible. That’s good enough for me to not try this game. If I’m going to play I may as well play LoL with my friends.

Valve is a good company though. I have faith in them, but Riot has nothing to prove to me because they are already doing the job and hosting the game that Valve is trying to convince us they can do.

Well I think SC2 is too bad on new ppl, you get placed in a league suited to your skills. Counter strike is pretty straight forward…i’m a bit unsure why you pull that up, ’cause its really easy to learn. Hard to master yes, but very easy to learn.
Eve is popular, but its not a giant, you think Dota2 is gonna be in the Moba genre, what eve is in the mmo genre?

For me a good game is something thats easy to learn but hard to master. CS is, and I think SC2 is as well. Buy guns, run out and shot ppl. Thats pretty much it. SC2 is only as hard as you want it to be, and you can practice offline where no1 will bother you. Eve is pretty hard to learn at first, which is why it will allways be a niche game among mmo’s but that does not make it a failure, but i’m pretty sure Valve is aiming for more than just to be a niche game.

You cant practice Dota2 offline, you just get thrown into it, and the other players are brutal. And the game is brutal, you quickly get left behind and it can be really hard to recover.

The main reason I believe DOTA2 will perform better than HoN, but not anything close to LoL, is because LoL fixes the main issues with DOTA, while DOTA2 just continues them, albeit with a new coat of paint.

Hard carries are bad design (in terms of 10 people all having fun in a game), denying is bad design (counter-logic), most passive skills are bad design (power without gameplay), long cooldown abilities are generally bad design (do-or-die impact).

Now, all of the above make DOTA DOTA, and those who absolutely love that formula will be happy.

Unfortunately for Valve, that formula has issues (most of which Riot attempted to fix), and those issues ruin the game for many. One person being a god and killing the entire enemy team is great for that one person, and the hardcore will accept it, but the casual player won’t, and hence won’t play DOTA2. The pros who really are about the money will go where the money is, and if LoL has 15m+ players, and DOTA2 has 1m, it’s not hard to see where the money is going to be. Pro players make most of their money off streaming (ads), not tourneys, and so the total player pool is far more important in that regard.

(Arguing that LoL is ‘easier’ than DOTA is pointless. Both games are PvP games, and if you find a game ‘too easy’, you should be moving up in the ranks until it’s no longer ‘easy’ for you)

Okay, just so I don’t get permanently branded a DOTA hating LoL fan-boy this will be my last post on this issue. I agree with Syncaine completely, I think DOTA 2 is going to be a bit of a storm in a bottle for the reasons he points out.

Keen I think you are forgetting how hard DOTA is on people that know NOTHING about it. Never forget most original DOTA players had already played Warcraft three offline, then online before they discovered it. Most of us already had hundreds or even thousands of hours on RTS games which made a transition easier.

I could teach my casual gamer girlfriend how to play LoL, (if we ever had time), as long as you have decent mouse control and a willingness to learn you can play LoL. I know of my four real life friends that currently play LoL only one is actually good enough to play DOTA and he won’t leave the others.

I see a lot of Valve fans that have NEVER played a MOBA very hyped up about DOTA. “Its a Valve game! I love Valve! I’m going to love this game!” All I can think is, “I’ll find a nice piece of dirt for your poor mutilated corpse.”

I’m going to leave it by countering your comment that “Dota 2 will go places Riot can’t take LoL.” Uh Keen? They aren’t going anywhere. They are rehashing a mod they liked. They aren’t trying to innovate, they aren’t trying to take the Genre anywhere. They are making DOTA with better graphics and balance. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with you enjoying it. But don’t try and crown the Ur example of the Genre King just because its got a new coat of paint.

I agree with keen, making the game simpler so more people can play it in my opinion is bad especially for those who CAN play the harder game. There is no denying that DOTA2 will be a harder game then LoL and in turn harder to access but I think this makes the game better and more rewarding. When I win at a game that any random can play well I don’t feel particularly good, on the other hand when I win at a hard game I feel like I’m achieving something.

Keen, my man, haven’t read your blog before but in my desperate attempts to find any and all information on DOTA 2 that I can, I was brought here by the almighty Goodle.

Let me start by saying I support your efforts thus far even though they have been met with some beligerence from onlookers. I have played all 3 of the big ARTS titles (lets not start a debate about the genre as well aye fellas?) and I constantly found myself gravitating back to Dota itself. Even after playing many many hours of HoN and enough games of LoL to know that there wasn’t enough in Riot’s version of the game to keep me interested. I don’t think it’s worth debating with any of you why that is the case, just leave it at personal preference.

I agree with your views on Valve’s proficiency when it comes to taking a mod and turning it into a wholistically comsumbale product in it’s own right. Examples have already been stated but lets review shall we?
Counter Strike. We are about to be introduced to the 3rd iteration of this franchise. THE 3RD. May I remind all of you that there are likely to be NO MAJOR CHANGES to how this game will play. As the old adage goes, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. And this more so than ever applies to DotA.
Team Fortress 2. See that? It has a 2 after it. It’s officially a sequel and it’s own game and there has even been games that have borrowed a few ideas from this (Monday Night Combat for starters).
Portal. It was also just a mod which was turned into a game just to add into the Orange box and turned into a runaway success! AND it has it’s own sequel that is a good contender to be Game of the Year according to reviews I might add.
Alien Swarm. This is another little side project from God knows where that was turned into a cult hit over the course of a single weekend when it was released on Steam for free.
I would also like to point out that there aren’t that many titles being worked on by Valve as they seem to prefer the quality of quantity approach much like Blizzard who have inadvertantly given birth to this game and it’s offspring by simply creating quality games with good modding tools.

It was noted above that DotA originated on Starcraft and while this is true I don’t think that environment really enabled the game of DotA to grow in the first place which is why it was moved to Warcraft 3. The fact that the game has moved house again is only a sign of more growth. I have been playing DotA for more years than I care to count and it’s growth and change has been exponential even in the time it spent in Wc3. I can only expect more growth under Valve’s name and guidance. I also don’t think the setting of far future really suited it either but again that’s just personal preference. I’m sure it could work with the proper development of lore to suit.

TL;DR There is no way any of you naysayers have thought about the possibilties that have been opened up now that DotA is under the focus of a proper development company. The best is yet to come.

Will you be streaming DOTA 2? 😉

Well, I’ll be watching the stream if I get chance. Now I’m off to look up what “Creep Denying” actually is since I know it causes huge arguments.

Keen, In hon’s case not sure about dota it also reduces their xp earned if you deny a creep. Hence “winning” a lane mid is not always killing the hero but just getting a better creep score and you will out-level your opponent and of course have more gold.

Keen, you are playing both sides of the fence here. On the one hand, DoTA2 is great because it’s more like DoTA than LoL, on the other hand you argue that DoTA2 will be greater than LoL because Valve is going to evolve the DoTA formula more than LoL has. Which is it? Great because it’s like DoTA, or great because it won’t be like DoTA?

Right now, Valve is banking on being great BECAUSE it’s JUST LIKE DoTA. I believe that’s a mistake, as I’ve explained. I’d be FAR more interested in DoTA2 if Valve mixed things up even more than LoL did, and got it to work. As we’ve seen from the other MOBA titles out though, that’s a lot harder than it seems.

Finally, people are acting like LoL is tic-tac-toe and DoTA is chess. If you believe you (anyone here) can learn the game and jump right into high-end play, please do try. Surely the slower pace and more basic game mechanics will result in quicker mastery, right? (Of course not, because while the initial learning curve might be lower, and the do/die mechanics of DoTA are more limited, it’s still a skill-based PvP game with basically a limitless ceiling)

@Syncaine – GTFO of my head… 😛

I really latched on to this quote: “I’m saying I believe DOTA 2 will go places Riot can’t take LoL. Valve’s ability to take DOTA and expand it, while innovating on the MOBA formula will be far beyond the ability of other companies.”

Hasn’t Valve had years to innovate and expand the DOTA forumula… and what we’ve been given is DOTA2, which is pretty much just like DOTA with a fresh coat of paint? I’ll have to disagree with you here, Keen because I’m not seeing enough evidence of it.

You are right in saying LoL faces a great challenge here because they must delicately balance high ELO gameplay with low ELO gameplay. So far, Riot has done a pretty good job, but there’s always room to improve. However, if DOTA2 wishes to cater to the widest audience possible, it will face the very same challenges. If they choose to cater more to the hardcore crowd though (awesome if they do), they will add accessiblity barriers to their casual crowd. This will push them away from the mainstream. They’re in a bit of a catch22 situation imho.

I can certainly understand why someone would appreciate one game more than the other. That’s great and it’s why we have variety. But I just don’t see how DOTA2 is going to become king of the MOBA genre when it has such fundamental accessibility issues.

Lately, I’ve started to appreciate just how much effort Riot puts into their “anti-fun” design philosophy. They don’t always hit the mark, but at least they try for the sake of all their players – not just a select few. People whine enough about “U fed Akali newb – GG!” in LoL… I can’t imagine what those people will feel once they’ve experienced DOTA2’s super-carries.

Attitude-wise, this entire genre has the scummiest player attitudes in all of gaming, so LoL won’t be any better or worse than DOTA.

And for the record, I’m not a complete Riot fanboy. I have a lot of issues with LoL and I don’t feel like their bi-weekly new champion model is even remotely sustainable. At some point they’re going to have to mix up their revenue model or find a balance of content to development costs because few will be interested in a LoL with 150+ champions. Talk about a major barrier to entry… leading to stagnating growth and player attrition.

You guys are shortselling the impact of the super carry model.

‘Steal’ a kill from the super carry? WTF NOOB IDIOT DIAF F@G!!!

Die to the super carry? GG F@G NOOB FEEDING THE CARRY!!!

‘Feed’ the super carry (die twice)? IM GOING TO RAPE YOU IRL GOOGLING YOUR IP NOW (might be serious)

Play the super carry and not dominate? WTF PICK A CARRY AND SUCK IDIOT NOOB KILL YOURSELF!!!

Don’t play a carry? Enjoy being the sideshow of the 1v1 match of carry vs carry. Don’t do the above!

LoL has a trash community because it’s a MOBA game and has 15m or whatever players. The community would be 10x worst if it also had DoTA-style anti-fun design, and this is coming from someone who played TDA DoTA at a pretty decent level.

And any game that is designed around a carry model where 4 players is basicly slaves to 1 guy, and the tactic is to let one man have as much gold. xp and kills as possible is a bad game design in my book.

Baseball and Football means nothing to me. No1 plays them here. We are more into team sports you know? Soccer where every1 is equally important. But sure, trash my opinion instead of giving a real answer

My biggest issue with DOTA 2 is that its a clone, an exact clone. They are doing nothing with the fact that DOTA is free of the WC3 engine. They are keeping all the retarded “game play features” that were in fact just limitations of the old engine. DOTA2 will be for the hardcore DOTA faithful only and I doubt it will see much more success than that of HoN.

Meanwhile League of Legends will be over here just steam rolling the genre with a much cleaner and less boring presentation of the DOTA-type MOBA.

Its stupid how people mentionthat Dota 2 is just a dota clone with better graphics, the game is in beta mode ffs. How can u expect them to add new content when tyhe original content is not even halfway complete! There are still like 50 heroes to add and if anyone knows how icefrog works you would know new content will be a sure thing. The guy just keeps adding items and heroes always making the game more fast paced. Im not even gonna discuss LOL fans, they are nothing. If only DOTA players end up playing DOTA 2(which will not be the case at all) then so be it, tired of all these LOL players calling Tiny unbalanced because they rae too stupid to get bracers or turn their agi treads into str treads, damn it i ended bashing LOL players oh well I tried.