Rift’s PvP Woes are no Secret

Time to update you all with where I’m at in Rift.  Unfortunately, things have not been going too well.  The questing remains boring and most of the game is derived from the WoW model.  As I said in my original impressions of Rift, it’s just like WoW for those who don’t want to play WoW.   I had hopes that the PvP would be an endgame interest for me and that the game would develop a bit more, but I am disheartened to have to report to you the bad news.

The PvP in open-world is awful — or more accurately, non-existent.  I’d like to make it clear to anyone still wondering that there is zero purpose to open-world PvP.  I was a little deceived by the wardstone system thinking it was something when it really isn’t.  The only this to do is gank.   Will this change? Don’t know.

Warfronts (scenarios, battlegrounds) are where I spend almost all of my time.  I’ve leveled a character from 10-22 in Warfronts and my Warrior did most of 30-41 in Warfronts.  The problem is the balance.  There are some classes, including the one that -I- play, that are broken.  A handful of specs are so vastly superior to the rest that it becomes pointless to play the others.

The second big issue is CC (Crowd control).  It’s overkill.  I’m all for CC in PvP — I played DAOC.  However, unable to do anything at all and sit there completely disabled for over half of the entire warfront is not fun.  There are no diminishing returns so you can be continually CC’d forever.

PvP is also a warfront grind for gear.  When you hit 50 you stop getting exp in warfronts but start gaining “PvP Exp” which ranks you up in PvP.  You also grind for Favor to buy PvP gear (which makes a huge difference since it has a resilience-like stat).  The grind itself is not bad, since DAOC was about ranking up and I loved that, but doing it mostly for gear instead of mostly for abilities and doing it solely in Warfronts (because open-world is useless) is a system akin to Warhammer Online.

Topics on the official Rift forums:
PvP = just one long stun…
Instanced, Ladder based PvP is the only “real” PvP.
Mass exodus of defiants for guardians . Pvp getting worst every day.
Rift PvP – A joke, missing fundamental ideas and design…
Major Disappointment
Open Letter to Trion: Your business plan will fail.
World pvp going to die? Battlegrounds are killing world pvp.
PvP is pointless until Warriors are fixed. (Level 50)

The best ones were deleted.  You can rebuttal that this type of stuff is on every forum, but usually it’s just complaining instead of being a mass realization of the truth.

The question that matters: So what?

Rift, even with the PvP issues, remains the game like WoW to play if you don’t want to play WoW.  Balance issues get fixed overtime. Open-world PvP can be implemented.   It can be done before the mass-exodus happens.  Will it happen?

  • I’m shocked – shocked, I tell you! – to hear that a game that boasts about having 800 (or whatever) different class combinations would turn out to have severe balancing issues, with some classes crazily overpowered. Shocked!

  • You bring up a lot of good points – especially no immunity to CC (aka stunlock). Heck at 27 i had a 14 sec ‘disable’ (mez) which is just ridiculous. Diminishing returns anf immunity timers are a must asap.

    Also the Warfronts are just shit imo. No strategy or multiple ways to engineer a win. I have faith in Trion at this point to fix these glaring issues, as they seem to be on top of player concerns. But if it takes a year or more….

  • I’m totally understanding of it being a new MMO and fixing/adding stuff over time, but they have GW2 and SWTOR on the way.

  • I agree. I have no problem with their being balance issues, because they should. And they will hopefully work on those and fix them over time.

    My biggest concern was that of the PvP. It was that reason that kept me from purchasing the game.

    Again, I REALLY want to find a game to play, but I haven’t seen anything yet that makes me want to play it.

    Thanks for the article. Now I’m bummed (as I was hoping to find something to help me want to play the game). So I’m going to go download League of Legends and BloodLine Champions and sit on my sofa playing TorchLight till its ready (while also mentally preparing for mass raging!)

    Thanks as always for taking the time to share your opinions.


  • This is why I wait at least 6 months to 1 year before I considering buying into a new game like this (mixed PvE/PvP). I’ve learned all to well from my past MMO experiences (DAoC CC changes hurt tremendously).

    Even with just a PvE game the balancing act that devs have to do after release is a nightmare and when you throw PvP into the mix… well you know as well as me. But it is going to be worse in Rifts case because of the soul system and the huge number of combinations possible! I’d rather have to deal with Freddy Kruger.

    It’s going to be a long time till things settle down as players goes thru each overpowered flavor-of-the-month and each gets nerfed in its turn. The pain hurts even to just imagine.

  • @Howdy Doody: League of Legends is a good game. I think I’m going to play through TorchLight again… maybe even buy it on the console so I can sit back and enjoy.

    @Curious George: Yeah, the big problem is getting it fixed before a huge AAA release comes.

  • I dare say that this game is WAR without keep fights.

    I remember in WAR where a lot were complaining that the RVR lakes were empty… while they were all leveling in instanced scenarios.

    Same goes here, you say that world PvP is only about ganking… thats because PvPers are in warfronts… instanced. away from the world.

    Again, only DAOC had it right. While leveling, concentrate PvP in a single persistent battleground for each 5 levels. Then at end game, open it up.

    Rift is gonna get ugly in a couple months. How will people complete the invasion quests in the 30s zone if we can barely do it now with the leveling wave.

    Theres a lot of stuff that i like with this game. PvP aint one.

  • @Keen.. you always said the old games were best and were built on the best principles etc etc.. well give Asheron’s Call a try! 2 week free trial…. I dont think you ever did play it right? I played it for 3 years and I think i am going to log in and have a look. It has been so long I dont know if I can take the graphics but we shall see..

    Apparently still going strong since 1999..Worth a try, i think you will like its difficulty, complexity and skill based system among so many other things..Great game to just explore with Graev


  • Balance issues get fixed over time only if your expectations for MMOs is low. It should be okay to fix balance later? No thanks, 800 different class combinations means imbalance FOREVER.

    Instanced PvP scenarios don’t hurt open world PvP, they KILL it, you can’t tell me you’re just coming to this realization?

    No immunity timers and you’re stunned that you’re. . .stunned? CC is required for good PvP, but so are immunities and CC escapes, not diminishing returns.

    Sure I was hoping Rift would be different, but most knew deep down it wasn’t, we are all so desperate for some decent PvP that we fooled ourselves into Rift. Just because they know how to release a game doesn’t mean they know the kind of game I want to play =(

  • @Romble: AC was a great game. I played it briefly but preferred EQ at the time. A 2 week trial might be fun. Thanks for the link!

    @Higgs: It’s exactly WAR without the keep fights.

    @IlkRehp: Nah, I came to that realization with WoW, had it reinforced with WAR, and expected it with Rift. Just reporting the facts.

  • Sorry Keen, but the infinite career possibilities in Rift will make pvp balance impossible.

  • Heh, Keen i got news for you. Rift and WoW is not PvP games, never was, never will. PvP is simply one of those “features” that are tacked on just to say “we have it” . Crafting is the exact same “feature” every MMO dev is adding in. Rift and WoW crafting sucks, the entire idea of crafting is just some gimmicky feature latched on for the sake of adding another setting to your treadmill.

    So, yes, i agree with you on your thoughts of Rift PvP…but unlike you, i never expected a “fixed Warhammer” , i expected a “better looking WoW” . It’s clear Trion looked at WoW / Everquest as their platform and then drew in some things from Warhammer, those things are all the PvE features not the PvP ones..The Rifts, The Souls..all PvE.

    The rest is just there because the industry standard is now to have PvP,Crafting,Instanced Battlegrounds and so on.

    MMO developers don’t seem to think that just maybe these “features” they are tacking on is fundamentally flawed in its current state….especially in WoW. But players are suckers, they think if there’s crafting and pvp that it’s sufficient, whether it is actually -fun- and -works- is not really the goal it seems.

    DCUO didn’t even add crafting, i’m 99% certain, no one missed it there. I sure didn’t.

    Anyway i digress, Rift PvP and Crafting is in the same category for me. Both are flawed, and i personally don’t know if it’s worth it for Trion to focus on it in favor of doing better things with the Rifts/Invasions/Content . I would must rather have them put in PHASING [like in WoW] than spend months balancing Souls and CC in Warfronts…

  • Hm… I agree.

    Let’s stimulate this for ourselves. Since we’re on opposite sides of Sunrest, let’s get something going.

  • I have to agree with this. Especially healers are extremely powerful in PvP. Playing one my self I win 80% of the games. Playing my mage instead I loe 80%. You can usually determine who is going to win by looking at the stats and counting healers.

  • I just find it disappointing that a game launches and still it has CC issues in this day and age. They must have skipped playing DAOC and Warhammer.

    I would have thought they would have made sure that those parts functioned well before launching.

    As an early poster said, the number of combination souls had presented the company with an impossible mountain to climb on balance. Though saying that, some players only like “Balanced” when the balance is in their favour.

  • It’s sad to see that you are looking at leaving. Personally I like the game. PVP is an addon for me to enjoy the game further. I like the quests, the stories and some crafting. (I do have runecrafting so I know that one is borked atm so I work around it and continue to submit bug reports). I will say Rift is holding my attention far longer than Aion ever did. Heck into my 40’s now and the quests keep on coming. Something Aion never did.

    I will say yesterday was somewhat of a pain being ganked a couple of times. But all in all I am still finding enjoyment in the game.

  • I have to agree with most of it – but the lack of open world PVP is fairly obvious from a design standpoint. The way that the game works right now, there cannot be good open world PVP (broken record: mismanagement of PVP rewards and no objectives).

    In DAOC, you worked hard to get up in level so that you can finally participate in a fun activity and continue to develop your character while doing this fun activity. The absence of a less fun but more efficient activity was crucial. Rift uses the WOW model – you work hard and continue to develop your character by doing activities that become boring after a while (warfronts, battlegrounds, raiding, dungeon runs over and over) but there is no point that you can look forward to…what you are chasing is the “look what I have” and you are not trying to get to an acitivty that is fun (RVR).

    Rift has only one thing going for it in the longterm…that is the potential for them to rectify this. I am willing to wait a couple month and while I dont expect a complete change…at least an acknowledgment of the issue and a plan how to approach it. Without this, Rift will be just a stepping stone for SWTOG (which will be the stepping stone for the next best disappointing thing).

    The only thing I disagree with is the balance – generally I think that is just whining but that is my natrual defensive reaction to balancing requests because balance means to suck the fun out of classes…like we said before…balance is achieved once no class is fun to play anymore.

  • I’m still pretty suprised people actually thought this game was going to have meaningful PvP. I submit they did mention in Alpha offering more PvP options since the community demanded it but from the start this game was built as a PvE game (I will note here that I am referring to end game – questing is brutal). How is it really shocking that PvP is both imbalanced and boring? Hell they only mentioned in Open Beta 6 that they would look at RvR because the community wanted it.

    I guess my expectations were far more tempered then most others. PvP is a sidegame for me right now, nothing more. I have no problems giving them a shot to add content over the next 3 months. Honestly nothing on the horizion even looks close to playable (including SWOTR) except for maybe GW2 which is a long ways off.

  • Keen, I’m astonished that you, as a self-proclaimed fan of old school games, say this:

    “there is zero purpose to open-world PvP”

    The purpose is fun just as it was back in games like SWG with those amazing running street battles in Coruscant and early WoW’s Stranglethorn Vale.

    Wanting to be rewarded for everything you do, like a puppy begging for treats, is a psychological trap, what Raph calls a “brain hack”. Snap out of it man!

    I took my guild and a few friends on a tour of Defiant area the Stonefield last Sunday. It was a target-rich environment where much fun was to be had. We took their wardstone, ganked a raid that was attempting the zone boss (no purplez for you!), and were murdering the NPCs in their main town when the inevitable irate level 50s turned up. I ressed at the angel to see a tidal wave of red players coming towards me. I hit Soul Recall and hoped.

    Shortly after and possibly in retaliation one of their top guilds completely locked down Searwood and pushed on to the gates of Sanctum (our main city). I got murdered by them in one town, moved to a different one and got murdered by them again.

    I also love the warfronts. We have a great atmosphere and a lot of the regulars greet each other and joke. Very few people nerd rage, about 2 who I have on ignore.

    PvP reminds me of magic the gathering. You have your deck-building phase where you strategise your Soul combination then you have a match. In my latest deck I included two knockbacks which has already proved really great fun at the Codex. One tends to knock them right to the edge of the cliff, the second one sends them over.

  • World pvp –

    One zone where you buy all the top tier pvp gear and crafting recipes, capture-able towns (forts, castles et al) where the gear ect is sold. I would like to say something like the WoW instance open to the people who have the most towns in the zone but I’m not sure if that would be enough incentive to pvp constantly or not.

    Use the wardstones like DAOC used captains of the keeps, if the wardstones go down then the town can be captured. what would be excellent is a darkness falls type of dungeon as well. Having done pvp from early as UO/Eq through daoc, eq2, and WoW as well I always prefer open world pvp over instanced crap that is WoW’s battlegrounds and especially rated arenas.

  • A PvE game has PvP balance issues? I’m shocked! Shocked, I say!

    Yah, the whole souls combination things is pretty cool but it’s not that completely surprising that it has massive balance issues. PvE balance and PvP balance are so different that it’s never easy to work out. Sounds like Blizzard just gave up on PvP balance in WoW. Maybe not, I don’t know.

    As for Rift, they did it best by only really having 4 classes. Is some soul the best PvP spec? well you HAVE that option. It’s not up to Trion to make EVERY combination viable. So in that respect, they have a one up from DAoC and WAR in that respect.

    Having good goals in Open PvP and decent rewards is sort of a necessity. It’s a little shocking to hear that it’s lacking. I haven’t played Rift yet so I don’t know for sure what the oPvP is like but I’m getting a sense some find it hallow. But Ganking is just natural in PvP games, Half the people in DAoC were just Gank groups that would occasionally help in the Keep/Relic fighting if it suited them. I know, I ran with several over the course of my 7 years in DAoC.

    But in general, You got to give Trion some time to resolve the disparities but once again, the 3 month rule sounds like it was a good choice for me.

  • @Staph: It depends on why you play these games – if your main purpose is to play the PvE game menaing raiding, dungeon runs and that is fun for you then the occassional PVP for no rewards can be fun. If you play the game for the PVP (yes, Rift isnt a PVP game but yet many of us still try games to see if we can find a new good PVP game) then you need rewards.

    Sure, as a PVP enthusiast, I would run a dungeon or two a few times just for fun even if I dont get rewards…even a raid…but I can guarantee you that I will not run the same damn dungeon every night for no or for little reward.

    These games are based on rewards – how many grey quests do you do just for the hell of it (would you keep doing them over and over). How often would you grind on grey critters just for the hell of it?

    The just for fun argument applies to some players…but see if you would do your PVE acitivities for no reward (and I mean..continuously…not just once or twice)

  • @Rosh: I’m not going anywhere until GW2/SWTOR. I literally have nothing else to play and believe me I’ve looked. The most intelligent thing Trion did was release in this pocket of time when they would have free reign. I hope they fix the issues because they’d have an amazing game if they did.

    @Stabs: You make a good point. I see it a little differently though. When open world is the only option, with no battlegrounds, then open-world pvp has a purpose if without objectives. If you have open world but have battlegrounds that reward you more, why do open world?

  • Well, the namesake rift system has nothing like it in WoW. If it’s possible to join a public group in WoW by hitting a single button and get a reward without worrying about ninja l00tz0rs, then I certainly don’t know about it.

    So since your basic premise (that Rift is just WoW for bored WoW players) is incorrect, it’s hard for me to even read the rest of your article, let alone comment on it. But let me just point out that of _course_ the games have similar mechanics.

    Rift shares, borrows, steals, whatever, parts from WoW, EQII, WAR, and any number of other games. I wouldn’t say that Rift is EQII for people bored with that game just because both games have an artifact collection system or that it’s just like WAR because there are armor dyes (with primary and secondary channels even!).

    Of course it’s not a perfect game. But after three weeks, the game is as polished in both PvE and PvP as 6.5 year old Saint WoW- meaning there’s work to be done in both areas.

    And I’d defy you to both out another company that has responded as aggressively to hacking as Trion has. Last night, a player posted on the forums that he’d figured out why so many people had been getting hacked. Within _two hours_, on a Friday night, Trion had patched the game and removed the exploit. How many snarky blue responses from Blizzard would it have taken for them to even _acknowledge_ a problem, let alone patch it?

    So, no, you’re wrong.

  • Allow me to sum up what you said.

    Rift has rifts and public groups.
    Trion is trying to stop hacking/spamming
    Rift is like many games not just WoW

    Cool story bro, I’d agree with all of those points.

  • @Chris: I lol’d. Truly.

    “Well, the namesake rift system has nothing like it in WoW. If it’s possible to join a public group in WoW by hitting a single button and get a reward without worrying about ninja l00tz0rs, then I certainly don’t know about it.”

    The Dungeon Finder. Lootz you said? Oh, wait, I forgot, WoW ninjaed the Planartie mechanic from Rift (naughty Blizzard.) They’re called valour and justice points. You can exchange them for rewards in camps (another idea WoW stole from Rift.)

    Yes, it borrows from other games. But, then again, one feature doesn’t make a game. Several features combined do; and, funnily enough, a truckload of features (crafting, GCD combat, psuedo-talent trees, achievements, cross-server warfronts, single-corridor “dungeons”) are all pretty much lifted directly from WoW.

    Polished… where to begin? Horrific class imbalances in PvP is the first knock on the head. Then of course there’s the fact that polish without content doesn’t really mean much. I’d rather have lots of slightly buggy content than a meagre ration of pristine content.

    I don’t really see how you can possibly say “responding to hacking” is a good point of the company. Far be it from me to sing WoW’s praises, but do you know why they don’t respond super-aggressively? Because they already give you a (free) tool, the authenticator, which, for all intents and purposes and the vast majority of users, removes the threat of hacking totally.

    So, yeah, you’re the one who’s wrong *and* nonsensical.

  • I agree on your take with the state of PvP in Rift. My play style and observation mimics yours. I’m watching what you have to say, as many people do.

  • I’m a bit amazed that Trion, having both Adam Gershowitz and James Nichols from Mythic (and maybe even more of them) is managing to fall in the same pitfalls as Mythic did in terms of WAR PvP… ><

  • I think open world PvP – although a very cool thing – doesn’t appeal to the mass market so probably won’t be a focus of Trion’s.

    Balancing PvP in Warfronts will certainly be something they will want to address but it’s going to take time. Even Blizzard, who have had 6 years to balance PvP, are still constantly fussing over it. Every so often they implement a hueg bunch of changes that alter classes considerably and then have to start all over again. Look at how much PvP changed (and balance) in Cataclysm for instance.

    RIFT PvP will improve but perfect balance will never be achieved. Ever.

  • I’m not interested in the PvP side of things at present. Too much exploring goodness to enjoy. At the moment I spend a great deal of my gametime riding around on my two-tailed cat looking at the scenery or watching how the various animals, sentients, planars and invaders interact. Better than a wildlife documentary it is.

    In general, though, I agree with Stabs. Leisure activities don’t need any point or purpose beyond being enjoyable. So long as I log out of Rift feeling I’ve enjoyed myself, I don’t need any other reward.

    I also think the quests are pretty good, by MMO standards at least.

  • It depends on what you mean by the mass market…so far, we havent heard any news on Trion hitting the 1 million subscription mark (we heard before that 1 million Trion accounts were started).

    If I remember correctly, Warhammer achieved 700-800,000 subscriptions pretty quick after release. This was Warhammer…people signed up for it because the RVR game appealed to them. They just left because the implementtaion was horrid (with some of the same mistakes being done here with Rift). I’d call 800K a mass market…especially if these are people that purposely signed up for an RVR game.

    I think it would be a very bad idea to take the chunck of people that signed up for Rift, hoping for RVR, and tell them to take a hike (or tell the ones that are waiting…to go away). The mass market plays WOW – if Rift wants to be more than a 3 month sideshow, they need to act and supplying the 800,000 disappointed Warhammer fans with a game that is suitable for them is one way of doing it.

    The next big game is around the corner…clock is ticking…I wouldnt underestimate the number of people that do enjoy RVR…once they leave, and people leave to go play Star Wars, and once people go back to WOW, this fun ride may come to a sudden end! 🙂

  • @keen

    How could you, for for any second, be surprised there’s no significant RvR in Rift? Ancient Wardstones an RvR game makes not, sir, and you knew this was an underdeveloped feature at launch.

    Rift is a PvE game, a good one at that, and the constant comparisons to WoW are getting old. Do you realize how ridiculous it sounds to compare standard genre features and single them out as flaws? Played Homefront this weekend: hated it because it had guns and an aiming reticle, how derivative …

    Also, there is a diminishing return feature for CC, duel a buddy with a spammable CC and you’ll get immune after a few applications (and from my testing the duration appears to shorten). I agree that CC needs to get looked at and these balance issues are a part of every game.

    The problem is pug warfront’s class ratio – not so much class balance. Every trick the ‘two button heroes’ are spamming have counters. The problem is if you’ve got no clerics, 6 rogues, etc .. You’re going to get creamed if the other team is using even loose tactics.

    makes not, sir, and you know better. when at no time it presented itself as an RvR title? Trion admitted that the ancient wardstones were underdeveloped at launch and may be You play on a PvP server which affords the potential for emergent large scale PvP with the a small carrot (ancient

  • I cancelled my sub in Rift to play Dragon Age 2. Now that it’s done, I am not sure I want to go back. I think attitudes on MMOs change with age. As a 30 something, the delusion of endless free time is starting to be dispelled. After playing UO, WoW, LoTRO, Conan, WAR and Rift, I must say the latter has one of the best launches. I cannot however deny the fact that half baked features bother me. Lack of balance bothers me. Not implementing good ideas from other games — successful or not– bothers me.

    There is this pink tinted glass period after every launch or “the new car smell” that a friend of mine uses to denote the time where everything looks great and new. Well, this period has been getting shorter and shorter for me.

    My expectations are increased with every release. If a game cannot avoid the same pitfalls and issues (i.e. not having different rules for PVE vs PVP, diminishing returns on CC, proper RVR like DAOC and heck even impoving on DAOC, cool crafting like SWars, Horizons, etc. As for RVR balance, pugs always get creamed vs properly played premades.

    At least The Witcher 2 and Assassin’s Creed: Brotherhood is on the horizon.

    I have some hope for Guild Wars 2. SWTOR… I won’t mind if it can be played as a single player online RPG. If I can see the story like that and if it is good enough to be considered KOTOR 3, then so be it. It does not look like a ground breaking MMO to me.

    I hope I am wrong about Rift. I hope they manage to move things fast and implement what they said, but I am not holding my breath, or spend any more dough for the moment.

  • For someone that is staying on this game, your blogging really leaves me questioning why the hell you are playing the game since you only seem to find faults in it. And most of the writing you do about it is just to criticize it harshly before giving even a small hint of a compliment for what they’ve done right.

    You have a lot of other games around and you can play old school titles if you like them: EQ released a progression server where they’ll be releasing all the expansions progressively, DAoC is still online, EQ2 just released an expansion as well.

    Trion never set out to make a RvR game so I can’t understand where you got that misconception.
    Could they improve world PvP? Yes.
    Could they fix CC? Yes and they should do it.

    But i am baffled that you want everything done right now. I don’t think the problem of this MMO is that it will last for 3 months. You attention span for games is 3 months and you want everything fixed untill then.

  • I do agree that if one does not like the game then one has to move on. There are plenty of other diversions out there. Single player RPGs, RTS games, and the excellent Hat Fort.. I mean… Team Fortress 2.

    But to accept that basically we should be happy with “me-too” half-baked features, lack of fore-thought in implementation, unbalance, and gereral mediocrity would also be wrong.

    I mean, haven’t there been enough bad long term issues with recent MMOs due to stability, lack of features implemented leading to a mass exodus? Do we need to endure more? Three month attention span is mostly due to lack of proper design and not lack of proper gamer attention span. As gamers get more seasoned why endure crap they have to pay for on a monthly basis?

    And I am not referring to just Rift (which does have its flaws) but all the recent crop of would be “The MMO” suitors.

    Yes after all those years and all that knowledge accumulated about what works and what doesn’t I don’t know about Keen or Graev but I want it all and I want it as soon as possible. Otherwise, do NOT bother releasing, unless you enjoy a fallout after 3-6 months.

  • My biggest beef was the lack of xp, and money gain in Warfronts. I also just leveled in Warfronts, and it was painful at times.

    A few suggestions I put on my exit survey was increase xp in warfronts, increase money drops (lucky to get 5 silver a body), incorporate insta looting on death in warfronts (many bodies go unlooted).

    Pvp needs more full sets of gear for lower levels. Maybe more opened on rep, but I saw only 2 pieces at 25, but at 50 it looked like full sets.

    The objectives in BG need looked at. If holding the fang wins the quickest what is the point of actually using 99% of the warfront for killing since its pointless.

    Codex is a little better, but still needs a more AB feel. Making Codex give more points makes everyone just zerg it. Make it so holding more flags gives more points overall so everyone isn’t zerging in one spot most of the warfront.

  • He’s right. There is nothing else to play right now. And I swear TV has actually gotten worse in the last month…if that’s even possible.

  • I’m with Bhagpuss on this one in that I’m doing a bit of everything and feeling on pressures in any direction – just having fun. The quests are decent, the zones are wonderful, the combat (as a Rogue) is dynamic and the PvP I’ve done has been fine.
    I’ve even progressed crafting despite it being the usual “Make 1,000 bits of armour then vendor them” model.

    I’d be interested in your take on the broken classes, from what I’ve seen Riftblades are still a joke (though I hear they lose out on scaling by 50), Saboteurs are still practically an exploit by design and Champions are doing insane damage partly due to Armour Penetration bugs.
    I know I’ve done Warfronts where there’s premades consisting largely of Champions.

    Oh and on the CC front – there’s AoE Fears/Stuns which really take the cake. I don’t find THOSE fun.

    Shortened CCs or diminishing returns should be an easy fix….

  • If you don’t take pleasure from playing the game you shouldn’t force yourself to do it just because the bulk of your friends is doing it.

    Do something you enjoy and do other activities with them. Simple as that.
    Bitching and whining that a game more focused on PvE has bad World PvP is a bit ridiculous since that isn’t the main focus of the game.

    @ComicRelief: Rift was one the few MMOs to come out since WoW fully polished and with a truckload of features functioning perfectly. It’s more than most MMOs did in the last few years.

    I agree that the game should be expanded in terms of features and would also love to see some dedicated world PvP areas but i don’t think it is something absolutely necessary.
    Even moreso because this is a two faction game, and if you give a lot more importance to World PvP then population imbalances will start to rear their head and that will be a huge problem, maybe unfixable as it has been in games developed by companies with even more experience in PvP games like Mythic.

    So tell me why the hell is it such a good idea to force this game in that direction? If you want world PvP go play WAR.

  • @Pedro Fanboi. Yeah it was polished and functioned perfectly in a lot of ways. I give it a thumbs up for that.

    But could you please point me to an MMORPG launch ever (even a single one…I’m looking back over a decade) that had such a gaping server side security hack to steal all your loot? Just one.

    Yes I know this isn’t what you are objecting to, but don’t feed me all this brilliance about launch bullshit.

  • Thanks for the insults Sanz. I’m no fanboy. I just get baffled that people attack the game for being what it isn’t. And Keen should know better than anyone having played WAR.

    And what the hell do the security problems have to do with the discussion at hand??
    And about that: they identifieed the problem and in two weeks after launch they already reacted to it. Will it be enough? I don’t know but they are reacting fast to problems.

    As for games with issues there were a lot of them: starting by WoW, Aion, WAR… How long did it take for them to react to these issues?

    And here’s a post explaining how CC works:

  • @ Pedro

    The best game is where your friends are at. Given that this is an MMO, it is even more important. At any rate, bitching about the game while playing it with your friends is the way it should be. “Oh man this game is so repetitive, I hate it. Hey, wanna hit some dungeons even if we have done them 2000 times? Sweet…” Whoever says they have not done that is a hypocrit.

    Our band of friends are just nomads. We try the games for the newness just because we pretty much know the arc. New game, infatuation, disregard of issues because of rose tinted glasses, newness wears off, the “little” problems are not so little anymore, moving on.

    But that’s me. If Keen and Graev have friends that play the game and get enjoyment out of the overall experience, a large part of which is the social aspect, so what?

    Sorry, WAR sucks. Especially it is an insult coming from the people who made DAOC. It was a regression in every respect with the exception of the public quests and the two different focus targets which were brilliant ideas.

    We reject your reality and substitute our OWN Pedro! 🙂

  • the dual targeting system was done in Vanguard. 😛

    I agree with you Comicrelief to an extent. If he still keeps playing the game it’s because the game provides worthwhile experiences to his friends and him.

    His blogging has been constantly negative about Rift with a couple of grudging compliments every now and then.
    Sorry, but if its so hard for him to play the game then he should just quit.

    Or else I’m afraid that Keen is no better than any WoW tourist.

  • Addendum:

    @ Pedro

    Implementing a feature does not require forcing a game to a path. PVEers can have their PVE, PVP junkies can have their PVP. You do not have to have a Darkfall environment to offer PVP nor completely do away with PvP alltogether to have PvE.

    Having both, admitedly creates more challenges. It is harder for balance. The way out is to have a different ruleset of how abilities work in PVE vs PVP, not just for CC, for ALL abilities. That way you have gears to turn and adjust without worrying about messing up a PVE skill just because it was getting abused in PVP.

    Hindsight they say is 20/20. Why not implement the things that worked really well from other games? I still just don’t get it.

    To Rift’s credit, it has done a great job of that despite issues. The honeymoon period is getting shorter and shorter and arguably, maybe the publishers should not count on a honeymoon period anymore.

    But generally speaking, if the game says there is PVP there’s bound to be a comparison to other games to determine what improvements this one brings to the table.

    From my marketing degree: Customers use their past experiences as benchmarks upon which all future experiences are judged. The company can do their best to set the expectations of their product, but as customers (gamers) get more seasoned, their expectations increase, especially in a mature market (and by mature I do not refer to the age of the users of course but the perception of an abundance of competing products, or PERCEIVED competing products)

    If PvP is mentioned, the questions in my mind immediately pop out: What kind? Will skills be different in PVP vs PVE or do we have to endure the buff/nerf cycle? Meaningful RVR lakes? Chance to retake an objective instead of hoping the other side went to sleep because there is no way to get it back due to bad design?

    Same with PVE. Are there public quests? How are quests presented? Wall of text and usual fed-ex or more cinematic experience ? How is the crafting? Make useless junk to level and still get better items with questing? Random occurences? etc. just to name a few.

    Even “casual” gamers who may focus on one or the other aspect of the game due to time restrictions or other reasons come with higher expectations the more games they have played.

    If you are to make a game that focuses on a niche: (EVE, DarkFall) there is nothing wrong with that. If you are to make a game that claims that you are not in Azeroth anymore you have to up the bar. In my opinion, Rift in regards to PVE has accomplished that. However if they decide to offer PVP why not up the ante there too? Why no implementation of PVP with RVR lakes, different skills PVE vs PVP from the get-go as well? Why leave it for later? Why risk people leaving alltogether after all that great effort?

    Have there not been enough launches with missing content and balance issues that by the time the honeymoon was over and people had left to go back to “the Devil they know” the damage was done even though some feaures were implemented 6 months to a year later? Why risk that?

    There is nothing wrong in enjoying what the game has to offer in the here and now with friends for however long it lasts, but, what if?

    That is all. You may flame at will.

  • Seriously, I have no idea why the “no diminishing returns” bullshit is being mindlessly repeated over and over again in forum posts, blog comments etc. etc. It seems that people just need a convenient thing to whine about and they don’t really care if their whining has any basis in reality.

    RIFT has a diminishing returns system, which is *stricter* that that of WoW. On the first application of CC, the max duration is 8 seconds, on the second application it is halved, after that the target is immune (so it is 100%-50%-immune compared to WoW’s 100%-50%-25%-immune)

    All forms of CC are split into only 4 (5 with silences) categories with shared DR (compared to WoW’s 10+ categories). The immunity timer is 20 seconds (compared to WoW’s 15 seconds).

  • EQ = Wow = Rift

    Sorry but it’s true…

    In all three you have warriors, healers, mages that kill internet dragons in a multi-player virtual world based in a fantasy setting.

    If EQ was a book would it go in the Military History section? Of course not it would go with all the other fantasy books…

    PvP will they have the resources to make PvP work? Yeah I think they will.

    Do they have enough examples of games where PvP works to draw lessons from? Yeah I think they do.

    I am disturbed by your lack of faith.

  • I just marvel at the seemingly endless ability for mainstream developers to stubbornly avoid learning the proper lessons from past failures.

    Mythic refusing to learn from anything. Trion refusing to learn from Mythic and Blizzard. Arena Net seemingly refusing to learn many of the important lessons from their experiences with GW1. No one at all learning from the successes, however modest, of UO, DAoC, and EvE. The list is really mindblowing.

    I understand there are realities to what you can and can’t do when you’ve got a publisher or other investor pumping huge amounts of capital into your game. But to my eyes so many of these mistakes just look like they’re either the result of a lack of imagination, overly conservative follow-the-leader WoW cloning, or just plain paralysis of creativity.

    It’s a great contrast to the indie game scene which is so vibrant and full of amazing, innovative ideas. Which is fine, I’m happy to support them rather than EA or THQ. Thank the gaming gods that digital download and self published games really took off.

    I just can’t wait ’til people start making some solid indie MMOs on a low budget. Hell, I’d rather play an MMO with Minecraft-like graphics than a Darkfall or Mortal Online that tries for a realism it can never achieve, and just winds up looking incredibly awkward for it.

  • @ ComicRelief

    Great tirade to say so little. Rift HAS PvP at launch. It has warfronts, dueling and you are allowed to PvP in the Open World in PvP servers with some rudimentary mechanics to foster it.

    Does WoW has better World PvP? Maybe, if you consider the two or three areas where you can do it. Exclude those areas and it was barely non-existant.
    But they never focused on the PvP as a selling point of the game. They focused on Rifts and the Soul System.

    Do you want a reason for not making a better World PvP experience? Money, time and limited resources. So, instead of whining about the underwhelming world PvP look at what they achieved with arguably 33 million dollars (since they had 100 million for 3 games).
    Now that they are receiving cash funds back lets wait and see the improvements they make to the PvP systems.


    Tthe game has some world PvP, and it has some nice instanced PvP. The features are there from release. Are they the best they could be? Maybe not, but its better to focus your dev team to release a stable and polished product with functioning features that can be expanded upon afterwards than one that has a truckload of half-baked features and super-buggy because the dev team is spread thin trying to cram a ridiculous amount of features.
    If you guys don’t understand that then it is more of your problem than the game.

    And implementation of PvP with RvR lakes: that worked really well for WAR…

    Complain about the underwhelming world PvP in their forums and ask for a more fleshed out system.
    But World PvP is a pain to balance in a 2 faction system as WoW and WAR showed so well.

    So how do you pretend them to make it better without creating a unfair system?
    Tell me how would you develop a world PvP system that could be applied in both the PvE and PvP servers.

    Please explain that instead of bashing the game unfairly. It has world PvP, even though it doesn’t have incentives right now. Go give suggestions to make it better.

    As for perceived competition, and considering that Rift has been marketed torwards WoW, EQ, EQ2, LotRO and WAR players tell me if its PvP is that bad compared to those games?
    For me it isn’t.


    And if you are so smart to make all those questions, then you are smart enough to research the game enough to know how it will work at release.

  • “Does WoW has better World PvP? Maybe”

    Pedro, I have a feeling you are arguing about something you know very little about…you may know MMOs and the PVE game but I dont even think you understand what we mean by open world PVP…

  • @Pedro

    Yes, Rift HAS PVP at launch. In 2011 this is as exciting as saying Rift has “like, OMG QUESTS that have like, objectives in them man!” at launch.

    The ideas of 3 WORKING RVR areas and MEANINGFUL objectives (and NO WAR does not count on that, DAOC did) are not something they need to reinvent. Just apply lessons learned.

    If you are talking about fairness, a pug will get creamed vs a good premade regardless of fair mechanics and even numbers. Player skills vary and if you are looking for 50/50 in everything you are delusional. It applies in PVE as well. Some clear content in a few weeks, others with the same or more effort take months putting aside any time constraints.

    In regards to your questions about “world PVP” DAOC ideas or PVP Servers for the full monte will do. As for balance, the game company can have records of population and more importantly ACTIVITY ratios for realms. Offer incentives like free transfers, exp boost, to compensate as best you can.

    However, I do believe that had you trly experienced the games mentioned in my examples, you would not be making those questions.

    As for being smart enough to research the game features so that I can determine how a game works in release, I must apologize because I forgot my lost Seer stone on my other pants. Damn I hate it when that happens!

    Oh wait a tick! I’ll actually buy the game, play it and then see how it stacks up to the other titles I have played. That way I see how much of the features were there, how many of them were innovative, how many of them were nice improvements and how many were just marketing crap. Yes, I think that will work precious.
    -Yes precious, it would!

    I’d love to stick around and play more, but I have some backs to backstab in Hat Fortress 2. Until next time…

  • Trion is looking for the player community to help with their payroll, HR and accounts receivables since they’re relying on the player community to help solve their security issues.

    What a fucking joke! Seriously, if Trion Security was running Homeland Security we’d all be speaking Arabic.

    Effing amateurs.

  • I understand what you mean by world PvP. What i don’t understand is why the hell you want to find it in a game that never made it a selling point besides stating that they had PvP servers and battlegrounds.

    You may belittle my experience all you want because i didn’t play DAoC but you know that game is still active and with a healthy population in the remaining servers. Go play it!

    As for CR: mate, so you can agree with me that Rift has PvP at launch. Well, then if you think they deserve the patience to see if they further expand on it then wait for that and try to make them expand World PvP. If not then you have plenty of choices around.
    I just find extremely pathetic when people are bitching and whining 2 weeks after the game was launched, especially when it’s a game that has PvP and most other features are solid and polished.

  • Ai ai ai…. OK There is a difference between “token” PVP and “Real and developed” PVP.

    As previously stated, I cancelled my account. Rift is a solid game, but some warts bother me, not just PVP, but in PVE. In past years I might have shrugged them off and kept going, but no more. I might be back to it I might not. I.E. It did not do it for ME. I gave examples of why it did not do it for ME. I AM playing other games.

    If YOU want to stick around with hopes of improvement, or are just enjoying the game knock yourself out, NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. Those hopes may come to fruition and they may not. I for one, am not willing to pay and wait.

    I also find it extremely pathetic when people are so blinded by rose tinted glasses to offer a fair estimation of the game and choose to settle for “average”, so THERE!

    It is my opinion of the game and I tried to articulate it as best I could. At minimum we can agree to disagree.

  • With Ludo and Bhag – not sure why anyone would have purchased Rift expecting a strong O RVR game. Good god the beta was forever and anyone remotely interested in playing had a chance check it out. More than enough time to know that this is a PVE game with some PVP. Wanting it to be something else wasn’t going to make it so. and comparing it to WAR which was billed as PVP/RVR doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

    Don’t think they were out to solve the RVR issues we hit in WAR, its not a PVP focused game. There some out there to be played, go enjoy them.

  • PS who says people are settling just because its not your cup of tea. I have great fun whenever I play.

  • I do have fun in Rift. I can be critical about the PvP and have an overall negative outlook on a game while still enjoying aspects of it.

    The zones are (mostly) nice looking. I enjoy the types of monsters they have. I like doing dungeons with friends. I have fun when I’m progressing my character and doing things other than quest grinding — which isn’t often but it happens.

    I see Rift as a 3 monther not just for me but for mots of you, I really do. I’ll get the most out of those 3 months as possible while hoping something better comes around.

    The question to ask is: Is there something better I could be playing? Not really. I could play WoW actively again, but there’s only raiding to do and the majority of our raid team got bored. I could not play any MMO and focus on my backlog of RPG’s and shooters, but I like having a MMO on hand.

  • @Pedro: I and many other people would not “expect” Rift to have a good open world PVP aspect. Due to the WOW similarity, I would expect the opposite. It isn’t about what we expect but it is about what we hope Trion would do (after they indicated that they may do this) in order to make the game something else than a 3-month-er.

    Rift has a lot of potential and in order to capitalize on the potential they need to offer something that no other game offers right now. That is open PVP. If they do not, I believe that this game will only be a stepping stone towards Star Wars or Guildwars 2. Sure, “we” may be wrong, but “we” have a damn good track record of predicting why. when, and how MMOs have failed in the past. After having played these games and after having played many of the MMO “failures”, you pick up on the stench of failure in an MMO pretty darn quick.

    Rift is a fun game…from the failures, it is the best so far and it has the most potential. However, it has 3-6 month life span written all over it. I can see that Rift could develop into a strong MMO if they were do make the right decisions – that is what it is about.

    By the way, telling people to go play a 10 year old game that they played the hell out of it is just silly…DAOC is in the past…so is UO…just because you enjoy a certain play style, it doesn’t mean that you wouldn’t enjoy a new game that advances the play style.

  • @CR

    I am playing the game not because I am expecting it to get BETTER. But because I am having fun with it NOW. And given the record of Trion answering fast to the playerbase concerns in most issues and hearing for feedback that made them do significant changes to some of the more important systems of the game during Open Beta like the Souls System and the PvP servers ruleset I am more than willing to play it.

    To all of you saying that Rift has a 3 month lifespan written all over it explain me why! What core flaw in the game makes you say that the game will fail in 3 months for a huge chunk of its players?
    For me there’s only one reason for that and it is not an inherent flaw of Rift but the fact that GW2 and SW:TOR will release sooner or later. Rift will face its true challenge when those two games release.

    Untill then, Trion has the time to perfect the games in the areas where it falls short. I also want them to improve the questing system, introduce some minigames and improve the World PvP. But what guys pretend is to see Trion do all of this inside the 3 months that you are going to play the game in.

    Newsflash: the game won’t shutdown and wrap up in 3 months. It will still be alive much as WAR and AoC are alive and those two had 3 monther written all over them, but curiously AoC got a big second wind when they released their expansion. Will it be growing in population in 3 months? I don’t know. It depends on how they improve the game and on how bored the WoW population will be with Cata.

    As for me, I like the game NOW, I can’t wait to see the improvements the game will go through. But I can’t guarantee that I’ll be playinng it in 3 months. Not because its bad but because I also have a real life that gets a lot in the way of my gaming and I will probably want to give a look to SW:TOR and GW2

  • Yes, and that is what we are arguing for…for Trion to perfect the game in the area where it falls short, namely…wait for it…open world PVP.

    These days, games do not need a core flaw to lose their player base – instead – they need something that actually keeps them! Ask yourself the same question, what is there in Rift that would make it survive SWTOR, Guild Wars 2, or a new WOW expansion?

    It will be a fun ride until those games come along…and then they will be a fun ride. Rift will live on with a reduced player base, just like the others…but once people leave you will once again notice that quitting is contagious…it is like the rats are leaving the sinking ship! Rift has the potential for good open RVR but righ tnow it is one of those areas where it falls short, there is a huge market need for open world RVR (the disappointed 500,000 people that signed up for WAR and quit within 3 month because they didnt like how it was implement not because they realized they didnt like open RVR after all).

    If Rift had the potential to keep growing and if Rift had the super nice features that would make it survive more than 3-6 month (survive = go on without losing a significant number of players or without simply declining and dieing a slow death) then why havent they pulled more people to Rift. We arent even at the 1 million subscriber number.

    Well, your last sentence says it all…they put in a decent open world PVP system and I can guarantee you that I will still be playing in 3 month even with SWTOG or GW2…after you mention this…how can you even wonder why we say that it has a 3-6 month lifespan? You are just coming along…squeezing out a few month and leaving the game behind you in the dust…we actually want it to flourish and survive..

  • I haven’t read my feed in a few days.

    Anyway, I’m guessing you play a rogue or a mage? I’m glad I don’t PvP as I am mainly playing those two classes.

    As for Rift being WoW for those who are tired of WoW, all games have the same questing system. I actually feel more like I’m playing EQ2 but with more people. If it weren’t for the invasions, I might lean a bit more to the WoW side. I feel like they took something that worked from every game. And my character’s head follows her target. That makes me squeal for some reason.

    But I am saying this as a person who dislikes PvP typically and leans more towards the RPG and questing side. The story is tighter than in WoW as well – well, defiant side at least. I never forget why I was brought back to life and sent to the past while in WoW I was never sure what overall purpose the quests trying to achieve.

    I did my first zone “puzzle” yesterday too! I was so happy. Also though, I’m just enjoying the game and nothing more. I’m not rushing to 50 or any of that.

    @CR: I’m definitely not looking at this expecting it to get better. If anything I’m the eternal pessimist and I didn’t want this game based on all the comments of how similar it was to WoW. My husband surprised me with it and I’m glad he did. I’m enjoying it now and I’ve stated why above. If anything, I think people who join after the initial couple of months WILL NOT have as much fun. Rifts and zone invasions are based on population. So while I’m collecting purple gems/tokens now from helping with invasions, I don’t see this happening at later levels unless they change it. The invasions will have to spawn with a lower population in the zone AND have lower requirements for completion or newer players may not experience them until end-game.

  • @Argorius: I personally think that the “WoW-tourists” have no intention of staying anyway. People named, for example, Rivindel or Azzeroth are basically saying “we are just here for the free month. Our hearts are with Blizzard.”

    But in any case, I googled subscription numbers and can’t find them posted anywhere. Would like to know where people get these from.

  • Guessing and talking BS. They claim rift will fail because of poor ORVR then cite two games that will crush it and neither of those games are talking about strong ORVR either. They also forget that not all SW IP or movie fans are interested in playing SWTOR. Not a single one of my rl MMO friends are considering SWTOR, not a one, myself included.

  • “They” didn’t say that SWTOR and GW2 will “crush” it…”they” just said that there wont be anything special in Rift that makes people stay beyong those two releases…the draw of a shiny new game is large…

    If SWTOR and GW2 had strong ORVR, I wouldnt even bother having this conversation…

    Well, ok – I guess I am wrong…since you and your three RL MMO friends arent interested in SWTOR that probably settles the debate of whether people will go try out SWTOR…(Pedro himself hinted at wanting to try it…)

  • I’m gonna side with Keen on Rift being a 3 month MMO. It is very well done though and has taken what WoW, Aion, and WAR did and made it better. I don’t think it will fall as hard as WAR and AoC did but I also don’t see it being over 500k subs in 6 months. Let’s be fair though, if it is anywhere from 250-500k subs it is a success by MMO standards.

    I’m playing Rift until SW:TOR and D3 comes out. Maybe a good WoW patch will make me go back, I don’t know.

  • Enjoy making up numbers? That’s all you can be doing at this point is wild unsupported speculation.

  • Skipped some of the comments here, so if this has been said, sorry.

    Pretty comical that in a post about PvP balance, DAOC is being brought up as a solid example, especially when we are talking about CC. DAOC not only had balance issues that FAR, FAR overshadow what Rift has (hey look, an entire 1/3rd of your population is gimped, fun!), but it’s the textbook example of how NOT to do CC in an MMO, and remained so for years. There is rose-tinted glasses, and then there is delusion. Anyone citing DAOC as a good example of balance or how to do CC are purely delusional (Unless you are talking 4-5 years in DAOC, maybe it changed by then. I’m talking DAOC in it’s prime).

    As for those asking for a quality world PvP MMO, you are barking up the wrong tree here. Those currently playing world PvP MMOs (EVE/DF) know better, those hopping from themepark to themepark expecting some version of DAOC that never actually existed will continue to blindly search and complain.

  • No one can claim DAOC didn’t have CC issues. However, DAOC did not have such a diverse CC portfolio. Almost every combination of souls in Rift has CC. I would get Mez’d (or do the Mezzing on my Healer) in DAOC but if that CC were to break, it’s game on because they’re not getting a second chance. I’m not sure about any groups you guys were in, but if you CC’d my group and didn’t focus fire and kill us before breaking our CC then you were dead.

    In Rift, you can CC then re CC then stun then silence then squirrel then push then pull then stun again. It’s really out of control. There’s no importance placed on CC — it gets broken by 99% of the souls with AOE — so it’s just something that is spammed instead of tactically used. It’s build into abilities instead of being used (except by Dominators?) as a main form of play and strategy. The result is that people are CC’ing you and not even knowing it. I’m stunned and disabled by people just mashing keys on their keyboard.

  • @ Saya: I do not do betas anymore. Bad taste in my mouth from WAR and AoC. I am usually more negative about a game if I play the beta. If there is a game I want to try I buy it in release. I usually try to keep an opne mind with reviews as well, unless the same thing is repeated on and on which raises the alarm bells. Example: Age of Conan: I thought that after the Anarchy online fiasco launch they would not do that again. We all saw how that turned out.

    @SynCaine: Is there a design axiom that says a good PVP game has to only be PVP sandbox and a good PVE game has to only be PVE Themepark? That’s the thing I am talking about. We set too low expectations and resign to the fact that this is the only way it could be… Pity.

    @Pedro Alive MMOs and MMOs on life support are two different things. Being merged to death two months after launch does not a success make. There are some short-term benefits to merging that allow for a more active community. For example WAR was dead without enough people to do public quests with and the merges did help, but the thing is, if a game is barely making up for upkeep, there are less resources for allocate for bug fixing, improvements and expansions.

    I am NOT saying this will happen to Rift. I really hope it doesn’t because it does NOT currently deserve it. I just have no truck with Rift. I’ll keep and eye on it and if I see improvements down the road I’ll jump back in.

    Basically I have no truck with any other game. If for instance, Blizzard releases the “Retun of the Fellowship of the Lich King to the Two Towers” yea i’ll check it out, but once I level up and see what I need to see and the rest looks like too much mastrubation without the payoff, I’ll cancel the account.

    The only thing that makes me bother posting is I enjoy talking about games almost as much as playing them.

  • @Keen – I agree with everything that you say – the difference is I don’t think I will make 3 months after logging in last Thursday (yes 6 days ago) to find my level 41 rogue standing in his whitey tighties by the mailbox in Meridian where some bastard had left him after selling everything I had on him and in his bank (even his bags)…

    6 days later from my CSR ticket and still no rollback, no apology no nothing other than a public admission that Trion had a huge security hole in their log in process. I have been playing mmos since 1998 and have never once had an account hacked until now and never seen such piss poor customer service either. I use different passwords for my email and my account, run Norton, Kapersky and Spybot on a daily basis. Given how quickly you get unstuck by a CSR if you get stuck in Rift yet how slowly they are fixing this issue you have to wonder if perhaps its literally thousands affected. Its almost unfathomable the amount of time and work “hackers” would have had to have done to achieve their nefarious end. Perhaps their equipment database was corrupted somehow and the whole hacking is just a cover… either way it shows a stunning level of amateurish incompetance and I’m not sure I want to give my money to a company which is so damn cavalier with its customers security and so slow to make good even after admitting to a problem.

  • I don’t think CC is really an issue, it can be fixed at least..

    BTW GW2 has a very large ORvR component. There is a 3 sided pvp zone with each side representing a separate server. I have big doubts about how their class design will work in ORvR but they have it and hopefully they get it right. They took the first step correctly: 3 sides.

  • @Keen: Here is how roaming 8s PvP worked in DAOC (not so much for you, but for anyone who did not play it): I see your group, did our CC go off? Yes, we win. No? We lose. We do not have FOTM CC class? No PvP for us.

    That’s it. That’s 99% of 8s encounters in DAOC, and why at that level the PvP ‘skill’ was pretty garbage (bonus points for post-ToA skills too). Relic raids and such where different, yes, but Rift has nothing comparable (yet?) outside of after-invasion brawls (which I personally think are good quick battles).

    That said, every class in Rift has access to one or multiple forms of instance anti-CC, and if used well, it’s game-changing. And since every class also has access to similar levels of CC itself, no one is ‘gimped’.

    The combat is different, sure. It has more CC overall, but if you are getting CC-locked and die, it’s more on you than it is on the system. Players will adjust and strategies will evolve.

  • I have 3 forms of CC-breakers. I have my Vindicator ability that frees me, a champion ability that frees me, and my charge that will let me move while snared. I use them all and still find myself disabled a great deal of the time.

    Funny enough, I also know that when I’m not CC’d the enemy probably feels I CC them constantly with my stuns and interrupts. I have at least 3 readily available forms of stun and two interrupts.

    I agree with you on DAOC 8-man mez CC. If the your Mez went off first and you did not break CC except for the target you’re killing (and the 8-man was silly enough to get caught like that) then you win. While 8-16 man roamers were maybe 50% of my DAOC PvP experience, the keep sieges and relic raids, as you said, were not.

  • @SynCaine are you talking before Realm Abilities? no purge etc

    Because post realm abilities it was not even remotely true. First.. interrupt abilities had longer range then CC. I could nearsight a bard OUT of bard interrupt or insta mezz range. It required skill but it could be done. You could also spam amnesia to interupt, or use instant long range root.. or have one curer trail out of aoe mezz range.

    Unless you completely backdored someone, the typically mezz curer would purge and counter insta cc and/or start curing. Your other CC like a shaman could counter aoe root. There was a ton you could do. Landing first mezz was an advantage but you could overcome it when 2 similar skill groups fought.

  • smthin is correct. The CC problem was 99% fixed in DAOC after a few months. Counter CC was actually a lot of fun. This remains one of the only reasons I still have hope for Rift: problems can be fixed.

  • Just hit 27 on my Rogue. The only open world PvP ive encountered so far is wandering Guardian gank squads. Im told once you get to shared quest hubs it really opens up. I really think when Port Scion opens up as an open area you will see Trions best effort at opvp. By the way i don’t even mind the ganking esp when 5 or 6 well coordinated 27’s can kill 2 level 50’s, even if they do suck.

  • Thanks for the heads up, been waiting for this kind of info. Ill just be staying away from this one all together now. Shame, had so much fun with the Bard in beta.

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