WoW Ninjas > Keen

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I was the victim of a well orchestrated ninja loot today.   A fairly good raid leader named Naiku allowed me to join their 25-man Archavon raid this morning.  I had gone on a few runs with this player before and their raids have always gone very smoothly.  In the past nothing weird ever happened and I never had any reason to speak ill of them or suspect anything but a smooth raid.

On this run the Deadly Gladiator Dreadplate Legguards dropped.  There was only one other Death Knight named Croton on the raid.  Croton and Naiku had run several instances before – including a 10-man Sartharion only moments before and a 10-man right before the 25-man Archavon.  In the past runs I’ve done with Naiku, Croton was always present.   When I won the roll for the item, as seen in the image to the right, the item was not given to me.  What happened was, Croton hearthed out and the raid wrapped up all at once and Naiku left Ventrilo.   I checked my bags and the chat window.  There was no usual “So and so receives loot”.  There was no item in my bag.  I questioned Naiku and he said “I gave them to you”.  At this point I knew that I had been duped but, feeling sick to my stomach, I tried my best to stay calm and get to the bottom of it.

Turns out the item went to the only other Death Knight on the raid by “mistake” -  errr, a “bug” as Naiku calls it.  When I questioned Croton if he had them he confirmed that they went to him.  I asked him if he would submit a ticketto have Blizzard transfer the item.  He said he would.  In fact, being really bummed I asked him a few times to confirm and he said that he would submit a ticket.  Naiku even said he would submit a ticket.  It didn’t happen and the image to the right sums it up.

Why am I posting this?  Because I can.   This is the first time that I have been scammed in a raid …. ever.  I’ve been raiding since Everquest (many PUGS – successful) and have never once fallen victim to this type of crap.  I’ve seen it in PUGS but never in a full blown raid where people’s reputations matter.  But what makes this worse is Blizzard’s system allows them to do this.   Somehow the master looter was able to avoid having the item shown to the chat window (whether by Croton hearthing or some other device) and in the process was able to smuggle loot.  Blizzard’s system is so backwards.  The person who is victimized by a “bug” (let’s assume it was a bug) has zero recourse.  Only the person who received the item by “accident” can submit a ticket.  Doesn’t that seem a little… off?  A customer service department that does not protect the interest of its players fails in my book.  Blizzard has essentially given ninja looters the perfect modus operandi.

The whole situation bothers me more than it should.  I guess I’m at a crossroads right now.  I’m playing WoW because I enjoy the story, the dungeons, the friends, and the PvE in general.  The PvP blows – really, really badly.  Do I enjoy the game enough to justify the risks?  I’m really not sure that I do.  I could play Warhammer and get a little bothered by some of the design issues but overall feel happy about my play time.  I feel like every day that I play WoW brings with it new opportunities to be burned.  I may end up going fulltime WAR again here soon.  I’ll keep you all posted.

  • “The whole situation bothers me more than it should.”

    You are totally correct. While it sucks to want an item, just to have it given to someone else, it ain’t that big of a deal.

    Also, never trust anyone so that you might not use the usual fail-safe systems put into the game. There was no bug: the only bug was you trusting people that, obviously, you didn’t know beyond seeing a few times in game.

    In other words, don’t trust anyone so that you just pass, discuss, and roll. I do that with no one ‘cept players I kn ow very well.

    I also do that because I recognize the fact that if I were in a raid and something cool dropped, and they were dumb enough to ignore the fail-safes in the game, I would grab it in a second. Why not? There’s an endless supply of them.

  • I would never join a ‘pickup’ raid (or group) with master looter, you never know who is friends with who. On a real need/greed roll…you’d have them. There is no justifiable reason for a pickup raid to be run as master looter. (I’m assuming it’s pickup otherwise you’d be in their guild and able to harass them from there :D) And by the way that’s no bug, they just scammed you.

  • Yeh as soon as someone says “Yeh, I’ll be handing out the loot” I tell them to kiss my butt. lol


  • Yeah, I’m partially to blame for trusting someone. That’s sad though, isn’t it? Someone was able to flip a switch and go from being a good raid leader to the epitome of all that is wrong with humanity and I’m actually kicking myself for believing in the goodness in people.

  • I hear ya more than you know, man.

    It sucks really bad, but people are buttholes in every game, lol.

    I tend to not even release my roll abilities even with friends..not because i care so much about loot (trust me, I don’t..I’m more of a role player lol) but because I don’t care to let some kid get the better of me.

    Oh well, live some learn some.

  • If it was 25man raid, I could understand it if it was the first time that person did master looter. Especially if you two were in the same group he might have accidently misclicked. If anything, I would ask the raid leader to submit a petition, that is how we always got these situations fixed. I have had this happen in a group before and it was just an accidental misclick. Obviously the receiver wants to be a dick about things but if the raid leader puts in the petition, it should get something done.

  • I asked the CSR’s multiple times and they eventually got impatient with me and stopped talking. They were adamant that “only the person who received the item can petition” and they cut me off.

  • Happened to me too Keen, I already assume people are dicks and never rely on pug raids to be fair, I once helped a guild get their first ever kill on Gorefiend in Black Temple in Burning Crusade, and they wanted to charge me money for it, I was already geared and had done the fight for my guild, I just hadnt been on for BT at the time and decided to help a friend.

    It happens, sucks for you Keen, but look at it this way… pvp gear sucks anyways compared to pve gear at this point! If your pug raiding naxx or something anyways.

  • The raid leader did not claim mis-click, he claimed bug. The integrity of the raid leader, and friends that run with him, is very questionable to say the least.

    Very sorry to hear that you got burned Keen. I try to avoid the leet raider loot whores at all costs. The warning signs are usually there.

  • lol faith in people good one!

    sucks but I guess thats why I have always been a fan of tigt nit guilds

  • All of a sudden the PQ loot roll system feels fair ? 😛
    Nah just kidding, this sucks when it happens and it does happen more frequently than I care to think of. Heck I’ve even seen people who have worked their way up to classleader and raidleader in a guild just to ninja some loot at a bosskill and do a /g so long suckers, /gquit afterwards.

  • Croton`s armory shows hes wearing Heroes Scourgeborne Legplates :O

    Either he raised a ticket and you got them, or he simply already replaced them 🙁

    I feel your pain.

  • Good ol’ sociology. In a big game where you may never meet the small fry again, it’s so easy to just take advantage of them and to heck with one’s reputation. It’s just a blip on a very localized radar.

    Thanks for solidifying my own resolve to never play games where a single piece of in-game equipment matters so much to one’s power and progress that people will lie, cheat, steal and backstab for it, with no consequence after. There’s enough of that ugliness in RL already.

  • its always the same, its the people in WOW that made me quit it in disgust, wether it is guild-dramas that ruin guilds or some trusted friend running away with your money, or the GM / Officer clearing out the gbank and bailed ..

    WOW is fun if you got a guild thats suits your style of play, it allowed you to ignore the horrible PuGs. Then again WOW is hell if you encounter those kind of people in your story keen..

  • Well, you SHOULD be able to see in chat that he got the item. As long as you hadn’t left the instance or been removed from the group, it always shows who the master looter gives the item to somewhere in the chat.

    The reason why the GMs can’t do anything about the situation unless the person who was MLer or the recipient asks them to do something is because you could be lying. You didn’t use the in game system of rolling (Group loot) which guarantees you the item that you roll higher for, so even though they can analyze the chat logs and see that you did a /roll whose result was higher than his, it is meaningless. You could have had another agreement on vent or been rolling for fun or anything. At the end of the day, you have no right to that item because the master looter gave it to someone else and he hasn’t made it clear to a GM he intended to give it to you.

    It DOES suck and I am a little surprised that they would do something like that. The GMs hands are tied but there is always social justice. Go to the realm forums and post something like this claiming that they ninjaed the item from you. Message people in trade chat. Get out the word that those people or that guild doesn’t honor their word. Remember that the incentive to NOT burn other people like this is a social one so show them the consequences of their actions.

    I have no idea if you will be successful in damaging their reputation. People will either care or they won’t. But it’s the best thing you can do. You have to realize that right now these are thiefs that you are trying to ask to tell the cops they stole from you and you trying to tell the cops they stole from you without any proof it was yours.

  • With regard to what Caleb said, you could do all of that stuff to tell others that he ninja’d your item, but I find it’s nearly impossible to gain a reputation, good or bad, in WoW, so there’s almost no point in doing that.

  • I’m guessing that you didn’t see Croton get the loot because he hearthed. I’m sure that on his screen the text chat said what you would expect it to say.

    He did this intentionally, with cooperation of the ML, but you already know that.

    Like Caleb said, your best recourse is social justice.

  • Keen, I think you are an experienced MMO player and not stupid, as this was the first time you were scammed according to you and I got the impression that you are a pretty smart person in general.

    But you knew before that the loot system of WoW and the bandaid fixes called “DKP” and other systems just SUCK. The dangers of pugging and trusting other people are known, too.

    I would be vengeful and tell everyone in sight what the guy did. Every time you see him or when you have spare time. GMs cannot really tell you that you are doing wrong, as Blizzard GMs hardly help victims or anyone at all, as you experienced. No name calling on forums is a rule, but they cannot stop you from accusing someone of something that he did indeed.

    People are greedy, you can tell them what the guy did and they will still raid with him if they are offered a chance for loot…

    But this does not stop me from striking back. Netiher should it stop you. They know they did you wrong, do not swallow it, make them regret it. People do not stop doing wrong if there are no consequences for them doing so.

  • P.S.: Raiding for items with a x% chance to drop divided by roughly 50% of your 10/25 man raid is not proper endgame content either. It is delayed item based progression that is not needed at all, as WoW PvE is currently piss easy enough as it is. And PvP is totally screwed up anyways.

    Dumb this game, everyone is playing it, but for a veteran mmo player it is an outdated playground for noobs.

  • Sorry to hear this happened to you Keen. Don’t lose your faith in humanity over a couple buttheads though. Don’t let them ruin your fun.

    If it was actually an accident the only person who can submit a ticket and get it replaced is the person who was master looter. Just for future reference. And also make sure you put them on your ignore list just in case they change their character names.

  • “Dumb this game, everyone is playing it, but for a veteran mmo player it is an outdated playground for noobs.”

    Dumb this game?

    Make SOME kind of sense..ok? Especially if you are going to call people “noobs,” you should learn to make a small bit of sense.

    Now, as far as
    “its always the same, its the people in WOW that made me quit it in disgust, wether it is guild-dramas that ruin guilds or some trusted friend running away with your money, or the GM / Officer clearing out the gbank and bailed ..”

    All I can say is that the new My Chemical Romance album is out soon. You might snag it.

    It is NOT the game that has created greed or loot lust. And anyway, what the hell are you guys GOING to these raids for? Let’s think….
    ….for loot right? Or are you immune to the hypnotizing effects of a purple sword?

    It comes down to this: if you join a raid/group, and they want to use Master Looter, you tell them to kiss your Horde ass. If you play Alliance, you deserve it.

    The game gives you everything you need to prevent someone ripping you off. If you are dumb enough to trust someone that you met digitally 3 times, then it is probably a GOOD thing so that you have now learned your lesson.

    Now quit posting whiney remarks about how BROKEN WoW’s loot system is, when it has every option for you to get what you want. If you let someone else choose for you, then you ignored those systems and have no pity from me.

    Beau Turkey

    PS: This was steered to the guy I quoted, OP, and to those in the remarks section. I think what happened to you just sucks, but you don’t seem to be crying about it. Upset a bit? Of course. It sucks.

  • I agree that you should post on your realm forums about this “raid leader” and his unfair practices. It was no bug, they had no remorse about the issue. The way the recipient hearthed out so quickly and immediately got them gemmed is proof enough that they had planned this whole thing.

    This is a lesson for all of us to only join PUG raids if they are going to use the in game rolling system and not master looter. Or just a warning that if you are joining a PUG, this is the possible risk you take.

    After that wash your hands of it. You’ll get an upgrade someday.

  • I been playing WoW since launch and have probably only witnessed two ninjas. It definitely sucks but I wouldn’t let it effect me to the point of quitting the game. Like you said Keen, pvp sucks in wow so is it really that big of a deal you didn’t get some pvp pants? Im sure you will see some sweet pve pants soon that will make you forget all about this.

    I would definitely post about this on the realm forums though. I would also make sure to mention it anytime you see him spamming for more in game too. The people on your server should know about this incident.

    I guess I can understand why some people wouldn’t join a group that is running with master looter but to be honest the two ninjas I witnessed were both need rolls while the rest of the party rolled greed so you can’t really say their rolling system is perfect either. IMO this type of stuff happens so rarely that its not enough of a reason to pass on all master looter pugs.

    Just my 2 copper. Happy New Year everybody!

  • I’ve been ninjad and have ninjad, good times.

    This is why I like PvPing in WoW over PvE, 100% chance I’m getting the gear I’m aiming for!

  • For the sake of all others like yourself, make sure the next time you see them spamming looking for more members for a raid, you announce that they have and will ninja items among themselves.

    It sounds petty and childish but if it saves just one other person going through what you did it’s worth it. People who bring others in under false pretenses then set up a whole charade like this are the worst kind of people.

  • “WoW’s loot system…has every option for you to get what you want. If you let someone else choose for you, then you ignored those systems.”

    Beau Turkey put this pretty well.

    Keen, this is just a life lesson. Don’t trust a stranger farther than you’re willing to be screwed over.

  • “It sounds petty and childish but if it saves just one other person going through what you did it’s worth it. People who bring others in under false pretenses then set up a whole charade like this are the worst kind of people.”

    You’re right, it does sound childish.

    Also, it makes you sound like the one that is just throwing accusations. For all you know, he DIDN’T rip you off, made a mistake and is trying to forget the whole thing. Also, the raid leader could have just had a friend that acted like a dick, and wants to forget it happened so that he doesn’t piss off his RL friend over some stranger on the internet.

    Screaming things like “He is a NINJA LOOTER” only makes you seem like the one that cares more about loot than anyone, which is probably the case.

  • Sorry to hear you got screwed over Keen.

    It happens from time to time (sounds just like this thread from the WoW forums that WoWInsider linked in their Guild drama column today: )

    Overall, I don’t think this kind of thing is super common, but it’s true that there’s not a lot GMs can do (master looter is DESIGNED to let the ML distribute loot as he/she pleases and Blizz wouldn’t never be able to do anything else if all they did was arbitrate disagreements since so much of it is he said, she said).

    While you don’t have much recourse with Blizz, I agree with other posters that you can — and should – contact the guilds these guys belong too and post something on their realm forum. It won’t necessarily help you, but it may make them think twice in the future and alert other players to their bad reputation.

    Don’t let a couple jerks ruin your fun. There are a lot more good, honest players out there.

  • For me this was one of the reasons I relegated WoW to just being a secondary game to stay in touch with mates on.

    The entire purpose of the game being to get better items just means that this sort of situation happens far too often, particularly if you do PUGs or raids with guilds outside your own. It may have been accidental, it may not, but whatever you still got a situation where someone feels they have been ripped off. And rightly or wrongly, most people will be annoyed by this. Regardless of it just being pixels…

    WAR’s contribution rolling might be messed up and seemingly random, but at least the option of players cheating you is taken out of any potential ninja’s hands. Course you can still get turned over in the 6man instances, but they’re just a distraction from the main game anyway 😛

  • Post a thread on the Realm forums detailing exactly what happened in a calm and concise manner. Reputation is everything at the high end, and ninja’ing does have social repercussions.

    However, don’t get baited into an argument. Just present your side with links to the screenshots.

    Finally, I don’t think that Blizzard can or should intervene. Master Loot is designed to let the Master Looter distribute loot however she desires. If you don’t like that, you shouldn’t join raids that use Master Looter.

  • to beau – letting people know that this guild is going to scam you is not childish. You actually seem to think it is ok to Ninja. If he made a mistake, he should correct it. You don’t just let it slide at someone else’s expense because “he doesn’t want to piss off his RL friend.” If he is a friend, it should be even easier to get the loot back. You actually sound like your the guy who did this.

    Keen should just direct people to this blog post if anyone questions his accusation.

  • Try LOTRO… this is how things work there:

    I join up with 5 strangers who are friends/kin with eachother to farm a 6-man instance. Near the end of the first run through, another one of their friends, who is the same class as me, logs on and wants to join the fellowship. The leader lets me stay for the boss fight, and tells me I have to leave, but he gives me all of the loot from the boss.

    Not so bad, huh?

  • @Keen,

    I’m sorry to hear that happened.

    WoW is built around gear ladders, and unfortunately some people value gear more than integrity. Esp considering how much time / effort it can take to get raid drops.

    That is one thing I really appreciate about WAR: the PQ loot roll system. While the PQ system may not be working for Keep Lord bosses, it seems to work fine in PVE. You can’t get screwed out of loot, and it makes systems such as DKP unnecessary.

    I quit WoW cold turkey because it is a gear treadmill. As you noticed in your blog post re: BGs, sometimes the gear treadmill incents people to deliberately lose, which is a stupid mechanic IMO.

    I’m RR42 in WAR now and taking my time and enjoying the game. I have “solid” set gear (4 Anni, Sent belt, Conq boots), there is no pressure to have to run instances over and over to get geared up to remain competitive, as there is in WoW. I just run around and look for skirmishes away from the zergs, and it’s fun.

  • @Beau

    Like Deacon said, you seem to be condoning the raid leader’s behavior. Even if it was an honest mistake, GMs have and will rectify these errors as long as all parties involved recognize them. Also, by announce, I said nothing about saying NINJA LOOTER!!! It can be as simple as saying in the same channel, “Beware of this raid leader, he has ninja looted an item I rightfully won to another and refused to help correct the situation”.

    People join pugs with the expectation that they will receive a fair chance at the loot that they contributed to earning. Letting others know about a history of this trust being broken is not childish in anyway, but responsible to your community. Your trying to peg me as a loot whore based on this advice on the other hand, is a different story.

  • @Taugrim

    I am looking to become a bit more active on Phoenix Throne again. Please remind me of the name of your guild, or add Vrin to your friend’s list so that I can track you down in game.

  • 11.5 Million players, theres bound to be a few bad eggs. :p

    No but seriously, reading stuff like this makes me miss WoW even less. I’m happily enjoying L4Dead atm where I actually heard about it first here of all places ;). Its a blast.
    Anywho, Happy New Year all!

  • Let me clear up some points:

    1) Making an “announcement” in General Chat in WoW, about how so and so is a ninja, is about as common as players saying “Leeroy Jenkins.” No one will take it seriously, and hardly anyone I know even leaves general chat on. Mainly because of childish announcements like that. It would serve him better to say “So and So raid leader is teh suxor” in the trade channel, and would get taken just as seriously.

    2) I never said that it didn’t suck that he got ninja’d. It did. Now he has made his blog post and he can let it go. No one will lose sleep over it.

    3) No one should go into a group with anyone and allow that stranger to decide who gets what. If you do this and you get burned, scratch it up to you making a mistake and learn your lesson. Luckily, it’s not real life.

    4) I have never ninja’d, but I don’t go into a group that ALLOWS for that thing. What do you not get? The systems set up in WoW allow for the group to PREVENT ninja looting. Again, if you fall for it, WoW is not to blame. Your lack of experience is.

    5) Anyone that says “This is why I left WoW” is more than likely one of the types of players that have helped create this environment. Why else would you be in that raid, over and over? … get loot. Looks like that ninja’s greed was just slightly better than your own.

    6) I want to emphasize that saying “Beware of this raid leader, he has ninja looted an item I rightfully won to another and refused to help correct the situation” is the EXACT same thing as saying “He is a ninja looter.” There is no noble way to let others see your childish, dirty laundry.

    7) Accusing me of being a ninja doesn’t phase me at all. You confuse me with someone that worries about a pixel to the point that I would allow it to ruin my game. Also, the last place I would ever look to for questions about my morals is a blog about WoW…then WAR…then WoW….

    Keep your chin up, OP. It’s just an item. You can get more, I promise.

    Beau Turkey

  • best thing to do is make a macro that shouts there names out as ninja looters and everytime you zone hit the key 😀 endless hours of fun… ahhh good times good times 😀

  • I hate to say it, but that’s what you get for playing WoW. Still playing Warhammer, still enjoying it more than I ever did playing WoW.

  • Sucks that happened to ya. Personally I only really play wow for the pve which is pretty well done. The pvp is at a stage that I’m not sure can be repaired, this happens naturally in expansions that grow so much in level and introduce so many more spells/abilities in the process. Luckily some of my old friends I met playing EQ back in 1998 are giving a go at this cool emulated EQ server that has only the original game and the first two expansions in it, kunark and velious. It’s also a progession and pvp server that still hasn’t unlocked velious yet! The leveling I think is 3x original as well which is a plus since leveling back then in EQ was crazy. Anyways EQ is still my favorite mmo and this will let me relive it again in it’s BEST expansions. Anyways here’s a little info about it if anyone is curious .

  • Welcome to wow mate, it’s full of those guys. The most times the best thing you can do is to ignore the people that did it and inform their guild about it, maybe make a thread in the realm forums.

    I personally gave back like 4-5 items to people they needed them that was given by mistake etc, items can’t give you anything if u don’t have anyone to share your game with.

    Try to have fun and totaly ignore the retards.

  • @Wickidd:

    Our Order guild on Phoenix Throne is Conjunction.

    Something I told Keen a while back is that if for whatever reason your crew isn’t as active on PT and some of you are looking for a home, you are all welcome to join our guild for as long as you need a place.

    We’ve grown quite a bit since we ran with your crew back in November, a lot of excellent players and quality people have joined us.

    Take care!

    Taugrim (Taugram is my main, SM)

  • “The systems set up in WoW allow for the group to PREVENT ninja looting. Again, if you fall for it, WoW is not to blame. Your lack of experience is”

    Lols. Theres nothing to stop people rolling need is there?

  • No, there is no stopping someone from rolling NEED.

    Meaning you, as well. If you think someone is holding off until the last moment so they can “ninja” something by rolling need, then YOU hold off and roll against it.

    If they win, and laugh in your face, chalk it up as someone being a DICK, not WoW being a game with a “broken loot system.”

    There is, like in REAL LIFE, only so much a developer can do to prevent someone from being an asshole. Actually, we all owe WoW for popularizing (I didn’t say invent) the need/greed system of looting.

    In any game, there are ways of cheating or of lying to other players. I think that is a lesson that most of us learn at what, 12 years old?

    Hell, I have been playing Spellborn, and it has need/greed too, if you choose it.

    But hey, instead of just saying “That guy was a dick…but I shouldn’t have gone into that group allowing them such a blatant opportunity to BE a dick…” we can all just say “Man, WoW sure has a broken loot system.”

    After all, SOMEONE has to clog up the general chat with “He’s a NINJA! Do not trust him!”


  • Keen, I’m sorry to hear you got burned. Basically you trusted the wrong guy and paid for it. That proves he’s a dick, not that all are. However to save yourself future heart-aches, don’t trust ML PuGs (I know I’m repeating previous comments but this really should be said multiple times).

    Your best action now, as others have said before, is to post the story and screenshot links on the official realm forums. Think of it as community service. For one thing, word will get around and people won’t be as hasty to join them as you were.

    Unlike what Beau says, from what I know (and I follow drama both directly on the forums and through wowinsider) threads that “name and shame” but provide screenshots are neither very common nor are they something the community ignores.

  • I know what you mean. Im useto it in raids, and pugs. It no longer bugs me like it useto. Im also useto people “Ninjaing” nodes. But today i had player “Devastationn” (a 74 night elf DK, on the stormrage server) take my quest kill, after i had marked it with “Hunters Mark”. As my toon pulls the bow to shoot, he death grips the cat, gets credit, and makes the kill. I endend up waiting 15 mins for the respawn. Some people might say “QQ”. Thats not what I say. If a player is willing to steal what you have tagged, then what might they do in a raid?. I give this players name and relm, because apon talking to other people, I found out they have had similar things happen to them by the same player. Perhapse blizz should make it so that when a hunter tags his target with the hunters mark, no one else can get the target. (and shorten the range of it)

  • How about this for a setup. 1st 2 boes reserved in ICC25 rep run the rest on a free roll, 2 epics drop (worth 3k gold minimum EACH), so raid continues. The raid *fails* moments later. It’s too easy to have more than 1 person collude, so that when raid fails everyone quits and they get 6k gold for about 2 hours work.