Keeps and Sieges

  • Post author:
  • Post category:MMORPG

As promised I am going to delve deeper into the Keeps and Sieges information given in yesterday’s February Newsletter.   To start us off I want to talk about Keeps.  I’m very pleased to see that Mythic is keeping close to everything from DAOC that worked and decided to ditch the stuff that sucked (No ladders!).  Each keep is laid out with the same general idea that there is a 1st floor, a second floor, and the roof.  The higher the tier though, the better the defenses.  For example, tier 3 keeps might have an extra outer wall to break down.  And as always, players can fortify these walls and defend their keeps.  I get chills when I think about playing a Squig Herder shooting arrows down on attackers… I better stop before I get too excited.

Each keep, based on location, sports the look and feel of the pertinent race.  When a keep is taken it will not transform suddenly to look like a keep of the conquering race.  Instead it will look like the same keep but with obvious cultural elements  “forced” upon it – dead bodies in the courtyard, banners torn and new ones placed up, graffiti, etc.  It pleases me to see they’re doing more than just replacing the banners.

Keep Lord

Keep Lords are the key to the keep’s ownership.  The only way to transfer leadership from one realm to the other is by killing the Lord.  A very basic and somewhat disappointing concept when you think “all I have to do is kill that one guy?” but I urge you to look at the bigger picture.  The keeps will be heavily fortified by players defending, guards, personal bodyguard to the Lord, and the Lord himself will hopefully be a challenge.  Keep battles can last a very long time – DAYS even.  I’m grateful for the Keep Lord system because without it we would likely be looking at a more mundane system like capturing a flag or touching a node.

Another great feature that comes with the Keep Lord is that he is marked as a Public Quest.  PQ’s reward everyone involved, not just the person who got the kill or did the most damage.  This means that everyone has incentive to attack and work hard in a keep siege because the entire process is essentially a PQ.  I assume that means players get loot rewards for killing Keep Lords along with renown.

Empire Ram Greenskin Ram

Siiiieeeege weapons!! wooot!  Rams, cannons, ballistae, trebuchets,  catapults, and boiling oil!  Siege weapons play a huge role in taking a keep.  Without them it might be impossible to take some heavily fortified keeps.  A few changes have been made and a lot of details have been clarified.

BallistaSiege weapons must be built on Siege pads – This is the biggest announcement thus far.  It is important to understand what this means.  Players aren’t going to be able to place a catapult anywhere they want nor will players put 8 rams overlapping each other onto one door – a ridiculous site if you ever saw it in DAOC.  There will be one pad per door and a few well placed pads surrounding each keep and placed throughout the world.  Here, and only here, will players be able to construct siege weapons.  It really is a good idea when you think about it or have firsthand experience with it.  A lot of problems occured when players would move siege or be unable to get a ram to a door.

It’s a bummer that you can’t be sneaky and place a catapult in some obscure location and begin an unexpected volley against defenders.  Siege pads do limit people’s creativity with using their environment.  I would really like to see the idea either developed early on or sometime in the near future to incorporate “siege zones” instead of single pads.  Instead of one single location allow for a general area around a keep so that the players can have a little more control.  The siege weapons can still be stationary.

Siege weapons do not require trade skills to build – Thank the gods.  I’m very happy that siege is being made more accessible to the average joe.  This means that every keep battle will probably have siege.  Players buy the siege weapons from merchants.  The cost increases based on the tier you purchase it in as does the quality of the siege weapon.  Siege weapons last 30 minutes and can be destroyed by the enemy.

Siege weapons are weightless – AND they only take up 1 slot in your inventory AND they can be traded!  I like the change from DAOC’s system.  In DAOC there were times when a player would have to strip off all his armor and leave it in the bank just to carry a few rams.  Entire characters were devoted to bringing these to the fight because they were so darn heavy and took up so much space.  A welcomed change.

Siege weapon control – Each siege weapon can only be controled by one person (except for rams) and they will have a slight learning curve.  A “golf swing” meter will appear on the UI and the more accurate the player is with the meter the more accurate the shot will be.  That’s a very cool system.

Rams are slightly different. Up to 4 players can be seated on a Ram at time and damage dealt is determined by the number of players present (one person does 25% damage, 3 people do 75% damage). Rams provide cover from attacks on high and player are shielded from 50% of all damage that rains down from above.  That sounds incredibly awesome!

I’m psyched about all these changes.  They are really polishing the flaws from DAOC and making Warhammer Online a truer RvR experience.

  • Grrrr. This game needs to hurry up. I’m bored stiff with my current MMO options. Even future expansions to them aren’t igniting much interest. Oooh, another faction to grind and instance to run 1,742 times. Yay. Oh boy, another 10 levels. To be followed with more faction grinds and running the same instances 142,648 times. Yay.

    Playing an elven swordmaster and carving up squig herders while catapults rain death and destruction on a keep all around me? Yay!

    I hope they do include the ability to launch players from catapults as a way of getting into a keep. Kind of silly (and the current video of it I saw looked kind of lame – there needs to be a penalty for missing, not just floating to the ground) but oh so fun.

  • Okay, this game is looking more and more like DAoC with cartoonier graphics. That isn’t bad — I liked DAoC a lot — but it never had the kind of success it deserved, likely because of its PvP nature, which is inherently limiting.

    Why don’t they use their collision detection to keep siege engines from overlapping, but otherwise allow them to be placed anywhere?

    And am I alone in thinking that giving crafters a role in sieges as important as that of the combatants is a bad thing? I LIKED that about DAoC. And I liked hearing that in Vanguard that crafters would be a vital part of a dungeon group even if they weren’t great shakes in the adventuring sphere (something they obviously backed down on).

    Oh well. I’m still looking forward to the game, but all I’m expecting is a slicker DAoC.

  • DAOC was incredibly successful for a mmorpg of its time. RvR was the selling point, not the falling point of the game.

    Looking at the graphics in these screenshots can you honestly say it looks more cartoony than DAOC? If anything it’s a step towards realism in comparison.

    I’m torn on the crafting role in siege weapons. On one hand it’s nice for crafters. On the other hand it sucks for the average user. I can see both sides but prefer the wide availability that siege weapons will have in WAR.

  • RvR was a selling point, but most of the people I met fell into two camps — refugees from EQ who wanted a more casual game, and those who wanted full PvP all the time. By the time I quit DAoC, most of the people from EQ had returned to EQ, and most of the PvPers were totally excited about Shadowbane, which would take the RvR aspect of DAoC to new heights, with player built cities and real contention battles.

    Most everyone left was just hanging out around the battlegrounds waiting for people to form up over at EM for a grand melee, which was fun (obviously) but I think underscored the fact that DAoC was seen as many things it was not by hopeful players, who came and then soon left again.

    My worry (as I’ve said many times) is that hopeful WoW players are expecting a new WoW — and won’t get it, leading to a spike and a sudden fall in WAR subscriptions. But we’ll see. I’m happy to see any serious entrant in the MMO space… and this one is as serious as they come.

  • re: screenshot comparisons. They were realistic for their time, and that’s not a really great screenshot. Here’s one from beta.

    I thought they looked a heck of a lot better than EQ’s pre-Luclin and as realistic as anything else out there.

    What the heck, I’m not going to argue realism in a fantasy game 🙂

  • I had a different experience. All of the people I met wanted a game exactly like DAOC where multiple sides fought eachother in an epic struggle for territory domination. The same people also enjoyed DAOC’s approach to PvE where the battles were about the experience and not about the rewards.

    But honestly the people you met and the people I met do not matter when looking at a game’s success. The game thrived as the PvP game for many many years. Games that came out in the wake of DAOC, like Shadowbane, failed to outperform. The PvP in DAOC wasn’t limiting – it was in fact something that set it free from the rest of the mmorpgs out there. DAOC had FFA PvP servers for the FFA PvPer, it had Battlegrounds for the instanced pvp, and it had open world frontiers with keeps and strategic points for the open world pvper.

    The only people I knew who would hang out in the battlegrounds were the people who really liked the battlegrounds. The rest found epic pvp whenever they wanted it out in emain or yggdrasil or other hotspots.

    As a whole the game delivered exactly how it was portrayed to hopeful players until ToA (an expansion). Only then did the game take a turn from what it was built to be and shake things up – causing people to leave and return to old games or find new ones altogether (it caused me to go play SWG.)

    WoW players expecting a new WoW need only open their eyes and see that plethora of differences being shouted from the rooftops. The majority of people leaving WoW for WAR know why they are leaving WoW for WAR – they want the type of PvP (RvR) that WAR has to offer – the type of which WoW has only recently become aware. The ignorant will come and go as they do in all games.

    I’ll stop there before I start writing a book. 😛

    @ the screenshot comparisons: It’s tough comparing old vs new, but you were the one who said it looked like a cartoonier DAOC. 😛 Maybe it’s in the eye of the beholder but I think DAOC looks more cartoony than WAR does.

  • They’re using siege pads rather than allowing you to position siege weapons at will in order to make the system more difficult to exploit, and to have more developer control over the flow of battle.

    Meanwhile…
    I wonder what race / class combinations will work best with siege weapons. You would think dwarven engineers would get some sort of bonus.